Importance of Original Sin

I didn't say you'd be condemned eternally for failure to use the links, just condemned.

By posting as he does it makes it easier for him to live by the credo "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."

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Again you miss the point

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I don't miss the point at all.Even in a formal debate I was taught that the object is to convince those in the audience who you can convince. It is not to convince the opposing debater.And with that in mind I can address what points you made that I wish to speak to to a third party. You can do the same and I think you do.You complain that you don't read my long sermons. Fine. I don't have to read your little few red herrings as well. Some comments that I think deserve some response I may respond to to some people reading along. Repetition of points not effectively refuted, can be needlessly time consuming.I outline many scriptural reasons which you completely ignore in favor of jotting down your few little comments. This can be a tactic to merely wear out the other poster. " Eat up his time. Wear him down. Cause him to expend much time and energy just to be dismissed with a sparsely chosen little quip. "So I will enjoy reaching the few readers who can compare scripture with scripture and make up their own minds. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

There is no doubt often dazzling light in the word of God. Maybe no rays penetrate the blackness of your own heart.

You really do miss the point. Linking your post to the specific post you're answering is for the benefit of the audience, not me. I've already said that I can find your replies to me whether they're properly linked or not. On the contrary, I never ask you to use more time. As far as I'm concerned, you're spending much too much time on off-topic sermonizing as it is. And if I can refute your point by showing that you're contradicting the Bible, why should I say more?

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And if I can refute your point by showing that you're contradicting the Bible, why should I say more?

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Refer me to your post which you consider your TOP most effective example of you refuting something I wrote in this discussion.Go right to your best example.

Well you seem not to have received that gift and have no clue how to impart said light. I don't have the same beliefs as you so my heart is "black". What a typical christian comment. You sure have a funny way of proselytizing.

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I don't have the same beliefs as you so my heart is "black". What a typical christian comment. You sure have a funny way of proselytizing.

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I take no delight in anyone being baffled. I prefer you open your mind and understand something of the Scripture clearly, obviously.I don't have the same belief as you so I write "b**s**t."
Typical Evo skeptic comment.
You have a funny way and predictable way of proselytizing. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Can you tell me where abouts in the Second Century AD this passage was written by the prophet Jeremiah ?

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" Can the Cushite change his skin, Or the leopard his spots?

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Then you also may be able to do good, Who are accumstomed to do evil," (Jeremiah 13:23)

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Iniquity to the sinner as black skin to the Ethiopian and spots to the leopard there. In other words - wrong doing is deeply embedded in our nature. Where abouts in the Second Century AD did Jeremiah pen down this prophetic utterance from Yahweh, and how if he [Jeremiah] was long dead ?

That passage has jack shit to do with Original sin.Of course all humans can sin (well I doubt atheists could sin) but thanks to the blessing Adam and Eve received in the Garden of Eden, humans have the capability to know when they are doing wrong.I know it seems you never read what the Bible actually says but do you ever even read what you post?

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" Can the Cushite change his skin, Or the leopard his spots?

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Then you also may be able to do good, Who are accumstomed to do evil," (Jeremiah 13:23)

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As Jeremiah says, thanks to the Knowledge of Good and Evil we can decide whether we will do good or evil. There was no "original sin" or "fallen nature", nothing that needs to be forgiven except what we do.

I'll give you two.One: God told Cain (in person) that sin is "at the door" and it's our responsibility to keep it out. He said if you do well you will be accepted - not if you believe the right thing you will be accepted.You claim, on the contrary, that sin is already inside and you blame Adam for that.Two: Jesus told His disciples that at the Judgement "all nations" will be divided into two groups, those who fed the hungry, etc. and those who did not. The only others present at the judgement are the angels.You claim that you are among the angels and exempt from the judgement. You make up a convoluted, self-serving "prophecy" to do it.

I just can't stand the way you "read" the Bible. All you do is take a belief of your's that you already hold, and the spin the passages in the Bible to say what you want them to say. You have no consistency or logic in the way you do this.If the Bible is talking about a group of people, and you don't want yourself to be subjected to what it says, then you say that its talking to just that group and not you. If the Bible is talking about a group of people, and you want other people to be inlcuded in that group, then you say that its not just talking about that group and it referring to everybody.Anybody who can take the message of Jesus, a man who charged people to sell their belonging, get off their butts, and follow him... a man who spent his life doing things for people and actively trying to help, anybody who can say that that guy's message was to just hold a particular belief about him, well, I guess they could say and believe anything.Its also very telling that you take the writing of Paul as trumping the words that came directly from Jesus, himself. I guess, anything you have to do to keep that Salvation by Faith dogma up and running is what you're going to do, even if it means going directly against what Jesus preached. You should stop calling yourself a Christian and start calling yourself a Biblian. Horrible interpretation. You're only interpreting it that way because you're trying to uphold you Salvation by Faith dogma.Jeremiah was writing to the Jews who were in Babylonian exhile. He was kinda pissed off at them. That passage has nothing to do with Original Sin, its talking about how the Jews have been naughty lately, they've been "accustomed" to doing evil, not born into it from Adam.Here's the surrounding text, you dirty quote miner:

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20 Look up and see
those who are coming from the north.
Where is the flock that was entrusted to you,
the sheep of which you boasted?
21 What will you say when the Lord sets over you
those you cultivated as your special allies?
Will not pain grip you
like that of a woman in labor?
22 And if you ask yourself,
Why has this happened to me?
it is because of your many sins
that your skirts have been torn off
and your body mistreated.
23 Can an Ethiopian change his skin
or a leopard its spots?
Neither can you do good
who are accustomed to doing evil.
24 I will scatter you like chaff
driven by the desert wind.
25 This is your lot,
the portion I have decreed for you,
declares the Lord,
because you have forgotten me
and trusted in false gods.
26 I will pull up your skirts over your face
that your shame may be seen
27 your adulteries and lustful neighings,
your shameless prostitution!
I have seen your detestable acts
on the hills and in the fields.
Woe to you, Jerusalem!
How long will you be unclean?

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He's talking specifically to "Jerusalem" and he's talking about particualr evil acts they've committed and become accustomed to. It has nothing at all to do with Original Sin. But at least we get to see the lengths you'll go to, the kinds of straws you'll grasp at, to keep spreading your dogma. Its terribly dishonest, I hope you know.

Romans 5:12 - Therefore just as through one man sin entered into the world, and through sin, death; and thus death passed on to all men because all save sinned. There relevance of Jeremiah 13:23 to the above passage from Paul is that men have a sinning nature so subjective to them that it is compared to the pigmentation of the Cushite's skin and the leopard's spots - totally intrinsic, thoroughly built in, part of their make up.

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Jeremiah 13:23 - Can the Cushite CHANGE his skin, or the leopard [CHANGE] his spots ? Then you also may be able to do good, who are accustomed to do evil."

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The sinner is ACCUSTOMED to doing evil. Can he change ? He can no more change this HABIT of evil doing than the Cushite can change his skin pigmentation or the leopard the spots in his fur.So Jeremiah 13:23 IS pre- Pauline yet expresses the revelation of the sinner's fallen NATURE. Romans 5:19 says "For just as through the disobedience of one man the many were constituted sinners ..." .The footnote of the Recovery Version on Romans 5:19 says -

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" Whether we are sinners or are righteous depends not on our actions but on our inward constitution. Through his fall Adam received an element that was not created by God. This was the satanic nature, which became the constituting essence and main element of fallen man. It is this constituting essence and element that constituted all men sinners. We are not sinners because we sin; we sin because we are sinners. Whether we do good or evil, in Adam we have been constituted sinners. This is due to our inward element, not our outward actions."

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Right now I am only dealing with the negative side of Romans 5:19 and not the positive -that man is constituted righteous in Christ.Just as we realize the Cushite's skin contains an element constituting its color and the leopard fur an element constituting it spotty, so the sinners in Jeremiah 13:23 (without the salvation of God) CANNOT change their sinning nature.The sinner's are accustomed to doing evil because their nature is constituted with such a nature. All humans commit sin including all religious people and all atheists too.The KNOWING of good and evil does NOT at all guarantee that the descendents of Adam will be able DO the good that they know or NOT DO the evil that they know.It does assure that the human CONSCIENCE informs them of their shortcomings. And this is knowledge which acts somewhat like a breaking system. It may aid in keeping men from falling TOO far. But the point of the Noah flood is that on the large scale, even this knowledge of good and evil did NOT prevent human society from falling into the utmost depravity. And God's judgment was necessitated because of His righteousness.We are very proud of this knowledge of good and evil. But it has not the POWER to overcome the sin nature with which all descendents of Adam were constituted. And the divine LIFE of God only imparted to man via His salvation, can overcome the sin nature.Neither Romans 5 nor Jeremiah 13 leaves us hopelessly dejected. Rather they point the way to the need of God's gracious and merciful SALVATION in Christ.

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I know it seems you never read what the Bible actually says but do you ever even read what you post?

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Obviously, I read what the bible says and you should stop mispeaking with your cheap shot that I never read "what the bible actually says."Bearing false witness is a transgression of the law of God. It is a sin. And at least as far as Jeremiah 13 and Romans 5 and plenty of other portions of the Bible I have discussed prove I read the passages. [That's some 3000 plus posts].If you want to say you don't agree with my interpretation of this or that passage, then state that. Don't exaggerate that into the sin of bearing false witness slanderously charging me with not reading the bible. In coming posts I will deal more with this matter of the descendents of Adam being constituted with a sin nature.The awakening of the human CONSCIENCE is a good thing GIVEN the circumstances man found himself in after coming under the Satanic rebellion. But this benefit of having the conscience awakened is not the same as man NOT being polluted with a foreign satanic element OR being able to, through knowledge, overcome that satanic nature. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

I intend to have a thorough discussion of Cain and Abel. I am not sure if I should do it here or open up another thread.The experience of Cain I will examine in detail. For now I stand by my understanding. And I think I actually already offered an adequate defense of Cain inheriting, as well as Abel, the sin nature.The point of God showing us this matter in terms of Adam EATING something, is precisely to drive home the point that he took something INTO himself. This wrong "food" CONSTITUTED a foreign element into his being which SHOULD NOT have been taken in.It is NOT simply that Adam disobeyed God. Though that is true, in unfortunate ADDITION Adam ATE something which got into the very fabric of his body.God's wisdom is marvelous here in portraying to generations of readers a most profound truth. The first man took into his being a rebellious and even foreign element which constituted him and enemy of God. He joined the enemy and was constituted with the nature of that enemy.Thus man so deeply needs a thorough salvation from the inside out. First of all, it is not what jaywill claims. You have to blame the Bible for saying the sinner's nature is akin to the Cushite's skin pigmentation and the leopard's spots (See Jeremiah 13:23).And many other places in the divine revelation the fallen nature of man is exposed. And particularly you have to blame not me, but Christ's apostle, Paul.

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For as indeed by the disobedience of the one man the many have been constituted sinners, so also by the obedience of the one many will be constituted righteous. [Romans 5:19 John Nelson Darby's New Translation]

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What some people need to understand is that fallen nature of the descendants of Adam is not bad news without a corresponding GOOD news concerning salvation in Jesus Christ.This is why Christ is the OTHER Source of another constitution as "the second man" or "the last Adam". I count this as a discussion that you probably did not follow. You implied that my response was with long sermons which you didn't read. So I assume that what you never read you never realized how your objection was dealt with.Of the two points, I regard the first one concerning the first fall from Adam to be more important. That is where I am going to probably spend some more time. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.

Now a word for those who talk about my "sermons" and my "proselytizing"I am into teaching people how to believe the Bible.
I participate with an intention that maybe SOME readers will learn how to believe the Bible.Some of you are into teaching people how to DISBELIEVE the Bible. Others are into matters of differing interpretations. But some of you have an agenda of teaching people how to disbelieve the Bible.If in the process of my writing "sermons" some readers become believers in Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior - I think that is splendid. You want to refer to that as proselytizing, go ahead.If you have no good news or nothing you think is worth being happy to share with the world, why be mad with others who DO have some wonderful good news to share ?Forming one's beliefs takes time, sometimes a lifetime. If I turn someone to even think a about the New Testament claims concerning Jesus, that's wonderful. Proselytes I don't need. Some readers considering the validity of the New Testament Gospel ? Yes, I hope some do become followers of Christ.If such accusers of "proselytizing" have nothing exciting as good news to share with people, that's too bad. Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.Edited by jaywill, : No reason given.