Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
8 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,814 Year: 3,071/9,624 Month: 916/1,588 Week: 99/223 Day: 10/17 Hour: 6/1


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Hello everyone
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 91 of 380 (712562)
12-05-2013 8:37 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by scienceishonesty
12-03-2013 12:53 PM


Black or White or Gray?
quote:
I don't even know why I came back here. Maybe to just get some closure I guess. I don't expect to really convince anyone.
Answer me this: Why would it be impossible for Jesus to be alive today and for science to also be true?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-03-2013 12:53 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 92 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2013 8:50 AM Phat has replied
 Message 101 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 11:23 AM Phat has not replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 92 of 380 (712564)
12-05-2013 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
12-05-2013 8:37 AM


Re: Black or White or Gray?
Why would it be impossible for Jesus to be alive today
This is what drives me crazy about you and your ilk. You take simple words and give them different meanings and expect people to accept these redefinitions unquestioningly.
If Jesus had existed he would be 2000 years old. Use a word that accurately reflects what you want to express.
Newsflash! Your Jesus is not alive.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 12-05-2013 8:37 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 12-05-2013 9:08 AM Theodoric has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 93 of 380 (712565)
12-05-2013 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 92 by Theodoric
12-05-2013 8:50 AM


Re: Black or White or Gray?
of course i don't expect you to accept it. You worship your intelligence and that of others and you fear believing anything inconvenient to your lifestyle and world view.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 92 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2013 8:50 AM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by frako, posted 12-05-2013 9:41 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 97 by Theodoric, posted 12-05-2013 10:42 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 98 by ringo, posted 12-05-2013 10:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 94 of 380 (712566)
12-05-2013 9:14 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Theodoric
12-04-2013 8:52 PM


Re: Some apology
Yeah, that was one of the two calendars.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 90 by Theodoric, posted 12-04-2013 8:52 PM Theodoric has not replied

frako
Member (Idle past 305 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


Message 95 of 380 (712574)
12-05-2013 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
12-05-2013 9:08 AM


Re: Black or White or Gray?
You worship your intelligence and that of others and you fear believing anything inconvenient to your lifestyle and world view.
Dos that statement apply to every atheist cause i for example believe in global warming, though i keep my car on when im waiting for people contributing to co2 pollution event though i wouldn't need to id just have to endure a bit of heat or cold cause my ac wouldn't be running.
Or i believe that smoking highly increases the risk of lung cancer and i still smoke .....
As inconvenient as those and similar things are i cant just wish them away if i deny their existence.
There is no difference how inconvenient a magic sky daddy and his zombie son are if there is no evidence for them there is no point believing they exist.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 12-05-2013 9:08 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 96 of 380 (712581)
12-05-2013 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 73 by Faith
12-04-2013 1:28 PM


Re: Some apology
Faith writes:
I've been learning a lot about the Vatican that the average Catholic doesn't know because it's kept from them and the material has to be dug up from very old books.
How do you verify what's in those books?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Faith, posted 12-04-2013 1:28 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 97 of 380 (712582)
12-05-2013 10:42 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
12-05-2013 9:08 AM


A little full of yourself?
You worship your intelligence and that of others and you fear believing anything inconvenient to your lifestyle and world view.
You never cease to prove that you are an ass.
You know nothing about me, but make these outlandish claims about me. I do not worship anything. I respect intelligent people and tend to respect and trust the judgement of experts in their fields.
You know absolutely nothing about my lifestyle. Nothing you preach is any threat to me or my lifestyle. I may be a very moral person and you have no idea. You continue to promote this asinine, bullshit idea that anyone that is not a "Christian" is somehow defective and amoral.
Well you can take a flying leap you self-righteous ass. I'd really like to compare our lifestyles and see which one of us lives a more giving, moral life. Then again you seem to have a skewed view about what is moral.
I notice how you can't defend your use of the word "alive". Typical.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 12-05-2013 9:08 AM Phat has not replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 98 of 380 (712583)
12-05-2013 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 93 by Phat
12-05-2013 9:08 AM


Re: Black or White or Gray?
Phat writes:
... you fear believing anything inconvenient to your lifestyle and world view.
Fundies really love that mantra, don't they? Of course, having to fend for yourself and take responsibility for your actions is much more convenient than having a Sky Daddy to do it for you and give you a Get Out of Hell Free card.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 93 by Phat, posted 12-05-2013 9:08 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 99 of 380 (712590)
12-05-2013 11:13 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
12-04-2013 5:53 PM


But if the Bible is true shouldn't archeology help to back it up? How can honesty be in the picture if something is just dogmatically taken as truth regardless of what the evidence points to?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Faith, posted 12-04-2013 5:53 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 106 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 11:57 AM scienceishonesty has replied

scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 100 of 380 (712598)
12-05-2013 11:21 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by jar
12-04-2013 8:32 PM


Re: Some apology
Ah yes, and the next thing you're going to say is that there really was no such thing as indulgences. I'm not really interested in pursuing this debate because Protestantism doesn't need defending. The history of why it emerged though was chiefly because the common people wanted to read the Bible in their own language so that they could see for themselves what the "will of God" was rather than the Catholic Clergy interpreting it for them. The Waldensians, Huguenots, etc etc were all just common folk wanting to teach the Bible in their own way and were persecuted ruthlessly by the Catholic Church. But of course, that is all just fantasy right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 89 by jar, posted 12-04-2013 8:32 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by jar, posted 12-05-2013 12:10 PM scienceishonesty has replied

scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 101 of 380 (712600)
12-05-2013 11:23 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Phat
12-05-2013 8:37 AM


Re: Black or White or Gray?
It's not impossible I suppose but it's also very improbable and it's an idea that isn't falsifiable. Why worry about it if there's no evidence? Why waste our time?
I think the question you need to ask yourself is: "do I really know that Jesus is alive and well interceding in Heaven for humanity?". But ask yourself honestly and when you want to utter "I just know for a fact" ask yourself how, how do you know.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Phat, posted 12-05-2013 8:37 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Stile, posted 12-05-2013 12:09 PM scienceishonesty has not replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 102 of 380 (712602)
12-05-2013 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 79 by scienceishonesty
12-04-2013 5:09 PM


Re: Evidence's role in belief vs. knowledge
everyone who clings on to a belief system that has no evidence are wanting to believe they have good reason to believe what it is they want to believe, but if they really ask themselves "do I really know", they will find the answer and that answer is that they don't.
I always knew for sure in the back of my mind that I didn't really know for sure, I just didn't want to admit it because I wanted it to be true. Now that I am not in a position where I believe in something just because I want to, it really makes a difference in how I look at things.
I hope you don't think this is the way Christians in general believe. I would never say I "have no evidence" for what I believe, the witness evidence of the Bible plus all the witnesses down the centuries plus my own personal experiences add up to lots of evidence. And I would never say it's about what I WANT to believe, it never was, it was a struggle in the beginning between things I'd formerly thought and what I was learning from Biblical revelation, and at one point I even complained to God about having to agree with certain Christians I'd formerly disliked. And I WOULD say that I "know for sure" what I believe, that God is real, that the Biblical witness is true and so on. When scripture says "Faith is the substance of things unseen and the evidence of things hoped for" that describes my faith -- it's a lot more substantive thing than unbelievers think. This is why I have to assume you only had a superficial intellectual assent type belief rather than true faith. That's not meant as an insult, just a description, and if that's true it's still possible for you to come to a REAL faith and be born again.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-04-2013 5:09 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by scienceishonesty, posted 12-05-2013 11:56 AM Faith has replied

Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 103 of 380 (712603)
12-05-2013 11:40 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by ringo
12-05-2013 10:41 AM


Re: Some apology
How do you verify what's in those books?
How do you verify what's in any books, meaning books that claim to report historical facts? You assess the attitude of the writer, you assess the totality of different witnesses against each other, you assess the information against other information you have, you assess what others say about the writer, you assess the source of the approval or the criticism, you assess the logic of the thinking, you check the bibliography for other sources and if possible check them out, you take notes on what still needs verification. The more you read the more you can make such assessments. You'll never have 100% certainty about anything but if you can't trust other human beings to be honestly and sincerely reporting what they know, unless you have good reason not to, then you are never going to have any knowledge at all.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by ringo, posted 12-05-2013 10:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by ringo, posted 12-05-2013 11:56 AM Faith has replied

ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 104 of 380 (712605)
12-05-2013 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
12-05-2013 11:40 AM


Re: Some apology
Faith writes:
You assess the attitude of the writer, you assess the totality of different witnesses against each other, you assess the information against other information you have, you assess what others say about the writer, you assess the source of the approval or the criticism, you assess the logic of the thinking, you check the bibliography for other sources and if possible check them out, you take notes on what still needs verification. The more you read the more you can make such assessments.
So how come your verification is so different from everybody else's?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 11:40 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 12:03 PM ringo has replied

scienceishonesty
Member (Idle past 3698 days)
Posts: 80
Joined: 12-02-2013


Message 105 of 380 (712606)
12-05-2013 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by Faith
12-05-2013 11:33 AM


Re: Evidence's role in belief vs. knowledge
Faith, but it is precisely why Christians (including yourself) believe what they do, just like every other religion in the world. If you grew up in India you'd probably be Hindu right now, if you grew up in Iran you'd probably be Muslim, an and if you grew up in China you'd probably be Buddhist --- all of these faiths are convinced that they are following the "right" creator or belief system.
All you have to do is evaluate other religions objectively and it's easy to recognize how deceived they really are. But of course, since you have thoroughly and unwaveringly convinced yourself that you in fact know the "real truth", you will proceed to comfort yourself with this thought and enjoy your special connection with God whilst watching so many others miss out.
When the blinders are on, they will stay on unless you remove them. That happens by asking yourself a simple question: Do I really know with 100% intellectual certainty that my God and my belief system is right? If your answer is yes, then you're not being honest with yourself.
I was a very devout Christian for many, many years, despite your convenient and all too predictable "well your faith probably wasn't strong enough". But there was nothing artificial about it for me. I just knew and tried to convince others with every persuasive argument that I could -- because after all, their souls are at stake too! The evidence for me was: a personal deep belief, an alliance with creationist talking points that were at least "equally scientifically valid interpretations" compared to the mainstream and the "archeological evidence" to support the historicity of the Bible.
The only way I could actually look at the second two with objectiveness (an honest willingness to find out what the truth really is) was by admitting that I did not know for 100% certainty that my faith was the "true" one. And since I'm not "blessed" with being schizophrenic, I never experienced the "Holy Spirit" talking to me or other spiritual voices affirming in some personal powerful way the presence of the Lord in my life. Perhaps this helped me to be intellectually honest with myself and ask the tough questions that most people never want to ask themselves.
As far as the definition of "faith" from the Bible, I'm fully aware of what it says. You'd be hard pressed to find someone with as much exposure as me when it comes to the Bible and theology.
Do you believe that the first four books of the Bible were written by the Prophet Moses, literally?
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.
Edited by scienceishonesty, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 11:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by Faith, posted 12-05-2013 12:14 PM scienceishonesty has replied
 Message 114 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-05-2013 12:15 PM scienceishonesty has replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024