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Author Topic:   The smoldering of EVC
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 3 of 168 (714992)
12-30-2013 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bolder-dash
12-30-2013 9:13 PM


challenge
You missed one: If Caused By Flood Drainage Why is the Grand Canyon Where It IS?
(Perhaps you or marc9000 could take up the challenge to describe why the Grand Canyon is where it is and nor either north or south.)
... once purported to be an inclusive forum for rational debate concerning evolution and creation.
... because they had topic names that actually looked like places where people could debate.
Yet it seems that topics you (and marc9000) have proposed still get promoted for debate ... so isn't the number of threads dependent more on the numbers of people proposing their personal views than any real filtering by administration? Some people are more prolific than others, so their views would make a larger proportion of the total threads.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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 Message 1 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-30-2013 9:13 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by marc9000, posted 12-30-2013 10:41 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 168 (715013)
12-31-2013 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by marc9000
12-30-2013 10:41 PM


Re: challenge
(Perhaps you or marc9000 could take up the challenge to describe why the Grand Canyon is where it is and nor either north or south.)
The non-atheist view is that there is more to reality than only the rearrangement processes of naturalism. That view is met with rudeness and mocking here, it has become a sport to ridicule and drive posters away who have that view.
Ah, so you don't have an actual factual answer to the question, just a mystical god-did-it excuse of an answer. Challenge not taken.
Rudeness often is in the eye of the beholder, who doesn't see that it is usually quid-pro-quo exchanges.
Mocking is often the only answer to extremely silly proposals that are based on fantasy rather than any understanding of the issues.
And of course you have never been rude or mocking in your replies.
You forgot one, 'Faith'. Non-atheists threads are promoted so the HAMMER game can begin.
You mean the process of asking people to actually support their claims with actual evidence -- that "hammer game"?
Like you and your conspiracy theories being unsupported by facts?
The "game" that begins with proposals that run counter to what is actually known by science and that are based on personal belief and imagination only?
Do you mean it should be acceptable for people to just make up any argument they want?
WHY IN THIS WORLD would any self respecting non-atheist come here for a one on one great debate knowing that a hammer thread will be started in the coffee house for no other reason than to ridicule and mock ONE poster? Some "one on one" that is.
Yes it must be disturbing not to have any support from fellow believers, but you are not debating with the Peanut Gallery. You are debating against a single person.
WHY IN THIS WORLD would any self respecting non-atheist come here for a one on one great debate ...
Curiously, I've been in several and expect to participate in more as time passes. I find it much better than dealing with a scatter of posts from different angles. It allows you to focus on the issues raised.
And in case you haven't noticed I find your classification of non-atheist and atheist to be rather rude and insulting for people that don't cater to your world-view.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by marc9000, posted 12-30-2013 10:41 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by marc9000, posted 01-01-2014 9:02 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 168 (715048)
12-31-2013 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ramoss
12-31-2013 6:10 PM


Is that in total numbers or as a percentage of repubs

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
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 Message 22 by ramoss, posted 12-31-2013 6:10 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ramoss, posted 12-31-2013 6:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 25 of 168 (715051)
12-31-2013 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
12-31-2013 11:34 AM


be careful for what you wish for ...
Bolder-dash writes:
You don't own science, it goes on with out you.
Quoted for truth. Creationists take heed.
Indeed, but also
But that's what can be great about the internet, it can expose the truth, no matter how much someone tries to grab a monopoly of it. ...
Of course the operative word here is "can" as the internet can also obfuscate, obscure and mislead the unwary, but truth(s) are out there, usually supported by objective evidence ...
Whether one wants to find it is a different question, as those who look for answers are the seekers ...
Those who just look for confirmation of belief aren't looking for truth.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 168 (715062)
12-31-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ramoss
12-31-2013 6:30 PM


So the percentage has dropped among people identifying themselves as republican ... you could have a lot of moderate ex-republicans that now identify as independent because of the tea party idiocy. Doesn't look like they controlled for change in percentage of respondents identifying as republican.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Coyote, posted 12-31-2013 11:02 PM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 28 of 168 (715078)
01-01-2014 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Coyote
12-31-2013 11:02 PM


Re: On the other hand...
You could also have a lot of ex-Republicans who now identify as independent because of Country Club Republican idiocy.
There is increasingly smaller differences between them and the lefties. It is now just a (small) matter of degree.
Exactly, and they are more likely to be ones with college degrees and thus more likely to be the faction that accepts evolution.
And the Democratic party seems to be moving to the right to swallow them up from the independents
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 60 of 168 (715198)
01-02-2014 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by marc9000
01-01-2014 9:02 PM


Re: challenge
I'll combine replies to several posts of yours to reduce your load for responding.
It's a factual answer to believe that there could be more to reality than what science can understand, more than one time dimension, more than three space dimensions etc. That there are more sources of knowledge than science. You gatta admit, it's no more ridiculous than claiming that all material throughout the entire universe exploded billions of years ago from an area the size of the head of a pin.
Indeed I have argued that there is more than can be understood by the scientific method, but the manner in how the Grand Canyon was formed is not one of them. Why would be a different question.
And I have argued against the Big Bang -- I think 'brane theory is much more likely to pan out, and I expect it to grow. See Did a 5-D black hole brane event horizon make the universe?.
Only in some of my replies, responding in kind.
Thank you. It seems most people feel this way, I know that I try to keep from replying in kind when people are rude and sarcastic or mocking to me. I know it's emotionally based response to firmly held beliefs (part of cognitive dissonance). This does not justify it, just admits that it exists on all sides.
A single person who has the side thread to get ideas from, get moral support from etc.
Which doesn't prevent you from providing ideas and support for those like mindspawn. Perhaps there should be two peanut galleries ...
And I do think that some posts on the PG's are unwarranted attacks.
Good luck with that, with finding opponents.
I've not had much trouble there, but I don't consider them opponents really -- have you ever heard the phrase "let us reason together"?
It's no different than a scatter of posts from a side thread, if you're in the minority. (which you never are, of course)
See the bluegenes Challenge (bluegenes and RAZD only)(bluegenes and RAZD only)[/color] and Peanut Gallery, Message 236 onward (tacked on to previous PG) -- you will notice that bluegenes gets lots of support and lots of green arrows but totally fails to provide any actual empirical evidence that demonstrates god/s are fictional inventions ...
Trust me, the great debate forum here will be the first thing to die, if the side threads continue to be permitted.
And yet nothing would prevent people from PMing participants if the side threads are discontinued ... but I agree that they are not really constructive in general.
And in case you haven't noticed I find your classification of non-atheist and atheist to be rather rude and insulting for people that don't cater to your world-view.
And that's another "satisfaction" that the o/p refers to. With each passing day that these forums exist, the phoniness in most "theistic evolution" gets clearer and clearer for just about any open minded visitor that these forums may get.
I'm not sure I understand this. It seems that you equate phony theistic evolution with atheism pretending to be theism, but I may be reading more into it than you intend. Can you truly not conceive of a valid belief in gods using evolution?
Message 37: Well said, but it's important to note that equally, the reasons people are creationists are much more complicated and varied than most in the scientific community (and at forums like this) are willing to acknowledge.
Would you care to expand on that? Other than belief in fundamentalist bible views, what other basis is there?
... As was pointed out in the o/p, a (however slight) shift has taken place in the titles of threads being proposed, and being participated in here. They’ve gone from having a more scientific content to being more about largely insignificant one-sided bashing of traditional religion. ...
Have you run a detailed survey of all topics on a time basis? Seems to me that people start topics that interest them.
Message 31: Atheists seem to get testy very quickly when one of their most passionate faiths, an old earth, gets challenged in any way, by anybody. ...
It's not faith marc9000, it is evidenced by many many things. I suggest you look at Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1 to see what I mean. For instance it is not faith that says a single tree in the White Mountains of California is 5063 years old, rather it is a statement of fact.
What people tend to "get testy" about is the willingness of some people to ignore and disregard facts under the pretense of belief -- for I could say:
With each passing day that these forums exist, the phoniness in most "young earth creationism" gets clearer and clearer for just about any open minded visitor that these forums may get ...
Phoniness that includes falsehoods and misunderstanding and misrepresentations. Phoniness that ultimately relies on a deceitful god causing evidence to appear old. Curiously it seems that creationists "get testy" whenever this is brought up.
Nor does evolution depend on an old earth - evolution occurs every day. The question is what the evidence shows about the past, and so far there is no evidence of specific creation of species at a single time. The evidence shows the earth is old, and the evidence shows that evolution has occurred while there was life on earth.
Message 32: Again, the passion that naturalists have for an old earth, and the emotion that challenges to it inspire them to erupt with here, ...
Curiously attacking this emotion and passion rather than the evidence of an old earth is you reacting with emotion and passion to your beliefs being challenged. Just quid pro quo eh?
My main point is that for forums like this to be welcoming and attractive to posters of all opinions, a lone poster against a gang shouldn't be treated so rudely, making it look like a sport to see who can shout them into submission. If the answer to that is, "that's the way it is at all one sided forums" that's fine, but it doesn't help keep that forum from losing popularity.
Actually on one-sided forums the poster that goes against the stream is usually banned. Ever been to a christian forum and watched how the naturalist views are treated? Seems they don't want to be popular with all people.
And to paint a whole forum based on antics of some people is not very tolerant is it?
So I don't think you have made your point. For instance has mindspawn left (for now) because of oppressive snide insulting comments or because he was not able to explain the evidence of consilience from different age measuring systems with his ad hoc suppositions for somehow altering each one differently?
Would you like to take up where he has left off?
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by marc9000, posted 01-01-2014 9:02 PM marc9000 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 74 of 168 (715232)
01-02-2014 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Percy
01-02-2014 2:23 PM


I'm not sure Facebook is appropriate for debate -- it suffers from all the problems other boards have regarding tracking of arguments and such.
That said, I wonder if it wouldn't be a good place for "News in Evolution and Creation" with a link to follow up in a debate forum.
The news would not be for debate but information, new studies etc, much like the Creation/Evolution In The News
Just a thought
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 79 of 168 (715237)
01-02-2014 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Tanypteryx
01-02-2014 2:36 PM


Re: The smoldering of EvC
Just go to the sign up page and click on the "I forgot my password" button, then answer the secret question (which is so secret that you are supposed to remember it) and then a new password will be sent to your previous email account. Simple.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-02-2014 2:36 PM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 92 of 168 (715299)
01-03-2014 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 91 by Coragyps
01-03-2014 9:03 AM


Re: The smoldering of EvC
Bananas are naturally more appealing

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 91 by Coragyps, posted 01-03-2014 9:03 AM Coragyps has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 95 of 168 (715305)
01-03-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 94 by roxrkool
01-03-2014 10:29 AM


Re: The smoldering of EvC
Don't you know that the chem-trail chemicals that they put in airplane fuel are inflammable explosives and are what really caused the Trade Towers to explode and fall?
(pitting one conspiracy against another, such fun)
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by roxrkool, posted 01-03-2014 10:29 AM roxrkool has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 98 by xongsmith, posted 01-03-2014 11:47 AM RAZD has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 99 of 168 (715309)
01-03-2014 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 96 by Tanypteryx
01-03-2014 11:04 AM


or something else
Meanwhile the food industry is adding more and more chemicals to corporate raised foods with questionable results
Page Not Found | Reuters
quote:
- The U.S. beef industry's dependence on the muscle-building drug Zilmax began unraveling here, on a sweltering summer day, in the dusty cattle pens outside a Tyson Foods Inc slaughterhouse in southeastern Washington state.
As cattle trailers that had traveled up to four hours in 95-degree heat began to unload, 15 heifers and steers hobbled down the ramps on August 5, barely able to walk. The reason: The animals had lost their hooves, according to U.S. Department of Agriculture documents reviewed by Reuters. The documents show the 15 animals were destroyed.
The next day, the hottest day of the month, two more animals with missing hooves arrived by truck. Again, the animals were destroyed, the documents show.
Reports that Zilmax causes lameness in some animals have raised concerns about the tradeoffs associated with a drug that adds up to 33 pounds of marketable meat to a 1,300-pound steer and has helped some feedlots stay in business at a time of punishing industry consolidation.
For 2.5% weight gain ...
Another reason to be off commercial beef.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Tanypteryx, posted 01-03-2014 11:04 AM Tanypteryx has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 102 of 168 (715313)
01-03-2014 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 98 by xongsmith
01-03-2014 11:47 AM


inflammable
yeah, I thought I would try to confuse the easily confused

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 111 of 168 (715413)
01-05-2014 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
01-05-2014 7:01 AM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
But Geology, oh I guess I should say Historical Geology, thanks to Roxie for the interesting paper she linked somewhere on that subject, Historical Geology studies things that exist in a time frame where there are no witnesses of any sort whatever. Well, there IS the Biblical account of course, but for all intents and purposes Historical Geology proceeds as if it didn't exist, alas, so since it doesn't exist then there are NO witnesses of any sort whatever to help them out.
As JonF and Percy have discussed rocks are witnesses (definition 4) to historical geology and thus to the prehistoric past (a much more appropriate term, one actually used by scientists).
But they are not alone. Other witnesses are the observations made about how things work in general -- the law of superposition is a witness to the relative age of layers, the physics of hydrology is a witness to the behavior of water which is a witness to how erosion occurs in different places in different ways. There are more: concepts that have been invalidated in one application are witness to high confidence in those concepts being wrong in general. Science discards concepts that don't work as witnesses for explaining all the evidence, concepts like magical sorting of particles by water that is somehow different from water we have today (where large dense particles settle first and grade up to the finest particles settling last): the behavior of water today is witness to the behavior of water in the past.
So it doesn't matter what you call it or how you describe it, science works by figuring out how things work, and using that knowledge to best understand what has happened in the past. It is not an ad hoc make it up as you go along process.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 7:01 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 125 of 168 (715454)
01-05-2014 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Faith
01-05-2014 4:32 PM


Re: The Unwitnessed / Prehistoric Past
This is completely false. I referred only to written documents as witnesses,. Rocks don't write documents.
Rocks bare witness to the ways they were formed, to the way they have been altered (bent, metamorphosed, lithified, crystallized, etc).
Rocks bare witness to the ways they have been deposited (sedimentary, volcanic ash, magma).
Some bare witness to their age (radiometric dating).
And yes I am using "bare" intentionally instead of bear because they lay naked the information contained in their composition and structure.
Of course you won't accept this ... because it violates your opinion.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 4:32 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Faith, posted 01-05-2014 5:07 PM RAZD has replied

  
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