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Author Topic:   The smoldering of EVC
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 16 of 168 (715010)
12-31-2013 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by marc9000
12-30-2013 10:41 PM


Re: challenge
WHY IN THIS WORLD would any self respecting non-atheist come here
Well, being a "non-atheist" I come to learn by listening to others who have knowledge in a specific area and then (more importantly) by doing some research on my own to conform the things being said. I learned more about geology by participation in the Why the Flood Never Happened thread than I had ever previously, mostly by doing my own research on particular pieces. Most of what I learned I never even posted anything about.
I also come here to improve my rhetoric skills. Being able to form a solid and clear argument is critical to being a scientist and participating in debates is an effective way to develop those skills. There is a wide variety of people on here from diverse backgrounds and I consider the ways they develop their arguments and see if there is anything I can take away from it.
A third reason I come here is to be exposed to viewpoints that are often significantly different than my own. For example, before spending time on this forum, I had only been exposed to a couple of professed atheists and my perception was based on those individuals and the misconceptions that I had learned in church. Now I see that the reasons people are atheists are much more complicated and varied and things I have learned about that issue has helped shape my own philosophy and even the way I live my own life.
A final reason is to put my own beliefs to the challenge. I realized several years ago that any belief worth having must be able to stand up to scrutiny. If I am not willing to challenge what I believe and have that belief survive that scrutiny, that belief is really not worth having.
Why would any "non-atheist" who doesn't want to learn, doesn't want to consider other points of view and doesn't want their personal beliefs challenged want to debate here? I have no idea. That's why creationists now tend to congregate at places like evolution fairy tale. It doesn't put their beliefs in jeopardy.
In that one, start reading at message 841
MESSAGE 841 ???!!!! Do you realize how many posts that is?? What about the 840 posts before that? After 840 posts of denial, evasion, unsupported evidence and general nonsense, people get testy. Did you happen to take note of Faith's attitude during any of that? Was she without fault? So it was only "atheists" who were disrespectful?? It's a debate forum - people are going to get rude; get over it.
The non-atheist view is that there is more to reality than only the rearrangement processes of naturalism. That view is met with rudeness and mocking here, it has become a sport to ridicule and drive posters away who have that view.
Yes, there are some who come here to mock and ridicule religion and Christianity in general (and Percy is not one of them - who this thread is supposed to be deriding). But for the most part the thing that most people mock and ridicule is the unscientific, unsupported positions that are touted as "THE TRUTH and only TRUTH." If you have something to say that is true, then you should be able to support that position. If others don't accept your position as truth, so frickin what? Move on. Let it go.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by marc9000, posted 12-30-2013 10:41 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Percy, posted 01-01-2014 10:59 AM herebedragons has not replied
 Message 37 by marc9000, posted 01-01-2014 8:26 PM herebedragons has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 17 of 168 (715011)
12-31-2013 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by marc9000
12-30-2013 10:41 PM


Re: challenge
More misrepresentation from marc9000 as usual.
WHY IN THIS WORLD would any self respecting non-atheist come here for a one on one great debate knowing that a hammer thread will be started in the coffee house for no other reason than to ridicule and mock ONE poster? Some "one on one" that is. Please read messages 9, 50, 69, 147, and others in that thread, and explain that to me.
Try truth marc, you might even like it.
There are many non-atheists here as you well know. Once again, as is the practice and basis of Biblical Christianity, you are simply denying reality.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by marc9000, posted 12-30-2013 10:41 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by marc9000, posted 01-01-2014 8:44 PM jar has replied

  
herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


Message 18 of 168 (715012)
12-31-2013 9:56 AM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
12-31-2013 8:59 AM


We discussed this over a year ago in Creationist Shortage. It hardly seems to be a moderation issue.
Personally, I don't like to get involved in political discussions or Bible study discussions, I prefer to stick to science threads. And these days science threads are in the minority, but again, hardly the fault of moderation. Lately the creation/evolution debate has been attracting a lot of those on the far fringes of sanity. (I'm not talking about Faith or mindspawn) Remember the guy that kept showing pictures of rocks and saying it was a dinosaur that had been shot with a gun. Or the guy that said Noah's ark was the human nervous system and (maybe the same guy) posted in every single forum his 14 ages of creation or some such nonsense.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for. But until the end of the present exile has come and terminated this our imperfection by which "we know in part," I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 12-31-2013 8:59 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 19 of 168 (715013)
12-31-2013 10:09 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by marc9000
12-30-2013 10:41 PM


Re: challenge
(Perhaps you or marc9000 could take up the challenge to describe why the Grand Canyon is where it is and nor either north or south.)
The non-atheist view is that there is more to reality than only the rearrangement processes of naturalism. That view is met with rudeness and mocking here, it has become a sport to ridicule and drive posters away who have that view.
Ah, so you don't have an actual factual answer to the question, just a mystical god-did-it excuse of an answer. Challenge not taken.
Rudeness often is in the eye of the beholder, who doesn't see that it is usually quid-pro-quo exchanges.
Mocking is often the only answer to extremely silly proposals that are based on fantasy rather than any understanding of the issues.
And of course you have never been rude or mocking in your replies.
You forgot one, 'Faith'. Non-atheists threads are promoted so the HAMMER game can begin.
You mean the process of asking people to actually support their claims with actual evidence -- that "hammer game"?
Like you and your conspiracy theories being unsupported by facts?
The "game" that begins with proposals that run counter to what is actually known by science and that are based on personal belief and imagination only?
Do you mean it should be acceptable for people to just make up any argument they want?
WHY IN THIS WORLD would any self respecting non-atheist come here for a one on one great debate knowing that a hammer thread will be started in the coffee house for no other reason than to ridicule and mock ONE poster? Some "one on one" that is.
Yes it must be disturbing not to have any support from fellow believers, but you are not debating with the Peanut Gallery. You are debating against a single person.
WHY IN THIS WORLD would any self respecting non-atheist come here for a one on one great debate ...
Curiously, I've been in several and expect to participate in more as time passes. I find it much better than dealing with a scatter of posts from different angles. It allows you to focus on the issues raised.
And in case you haven't noticed I find your classification of non-atheist and atheist to be rather rude and insulting for people that don't cater to your world-view.
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : ..

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by marc9000, posted 12-30-2013 10:41 PM marc9000 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by marc9000, posted 01-01-2014 9:02 PM RAZD has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 20 of 168 (715016)
12-31-2013 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bolder-dash
12-30-2013 9:13 PM


Bolder-dash writes:
You don't own science, it goes on with out you.
Quoted for truth. Creationists take heed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-30-2013 9:13 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 285 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 21 of 168 (715022)
12-31-2013 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Bolder-dash
12-30-2013 9:13 PM


It is with a certain amount of glee that I watch the now complete decline of a website that once purported to be an inclusive forum for rational debate concerning evolution and creation. As we can now clearly see, that no longer exists, although in reality it never did, it just was a better illusion before, because they had topic names that actually looked like places where people could debate. That was never true, you never could debate, because Percy wouldn't allow that, but it looked like you could if you were a first time visitor. Ha, good riddance to that. Now look what you have:
Is religion good for us.
Why the flood never happened.
Do we need God.
Have you ever read Ephesians
Bible and Plagerism.
Was Jesus's crucification all part of God's plan.
We invented Jesus Christ.....
Oh how it amuses me. Percy's evil little plan has wrought his own little bible study group. And Dr. A and Coyote are his altar boys. Ho ho ho.
I like to think I played no small part in exposing the fraud of this website for what it was. A poorly executed mouthpiece for Percy to attempt to convince the fence sitters to join his church of wounded pilgrims. They pretended they wanted to discuss science, but Percy made sure that would never be allowed, by silencing all detractors of his world view, and giving harsh warning to the rest about making sure you toe the party line. Dissent will not be tolerated in Percy's little cocoon. Tar and feather the evolutionist doubters if you must, but just make sure no one can trace the tar back to him. But don't worry, HE will protect you.
But that's what can be great about the internet, it can expose the truth, no matter how much someone tries to grab a monopoly of it. Percy wanted to post his propaganda with just enough disguise to try to trick the unsure comrades, but eventually his banana republic couldn't keep the doubters from fleeing. He said, this is my site, and I will post whatever false information I want, because heck, its free advertising for how I want the world to be. So now he has exactly the world he created, a bible mock group. Oh the joy.
I called you on it Percy, and being vindicated is kind of fun. You were warned repeatedly. Now you have been banished to your own island. You don't own science, it goes on with out you.
That was incoherent. What it chiefly seems to communicate is that you're still nuts. This is not really news, and could have been said with greater economy of language.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Bolder-dash, posted 12-30-2013 9:13 PM Bolder-dash has not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 22 of 168 (715047)
12-31-2013 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Percy
12-31-2013 8:59 AM


yet, the number of people who rejected evolution has increased among the Republicans.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by Percy, posted 12-31-2013 8:59 AM Percy has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2013 6:15 PM ramoss has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 23 of 168 (715048)
12-31-2013 6:15 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by ramoss
12-31-2013 6:10 PM


Is that in total numbers or as a percentage of repubs

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by ramoss, posted 12-31-2013 6:10 PM ramoss has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by ramoss, posted 12-31-2013 6:30 PM RAZD has replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 24 of 168 (715050)
12-31-2013 6:30 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by RAZD
12-31-2013 6:15 PM



This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2013 6:15 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2013 10:42 PM ramoss has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 25 of 168 (715051)
12-31-2013 6:31 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by ringo
12-31-2013 11:34 AM


be careful for what you wish for ...
Bolder-dash writes:
You don't own science, it goes on with out you.
Quoted for truth. Creationists take heed.
Indeed, but also
But that's what can be great about the internet, it can expose the truth, no matter how much someone tries to grab a monopoly of it. ...
Of course the operative word here is "can" as the internet can also obfuscate, obscure and mislead the unwary, but truth(s) are out there, usually supported by objective evidence ...
Whether one wants to find it is a different question, as those who look for answers are the seekers ...
Those who just look for confirmation of belief aren't looking for truth.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by ringo, posted 12-31-2013 11:34 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 26 of 168 (715062)
12-31-2013 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by ramoss
12-31-2013 6:30 PM


So the percentage has dropped among people identifying themselves as republican ... you could have a lot of moderate ex-republicans that now identify as independent because of the tea party idiocy. Doesn't look like they controlled for change in percentage of respondents identifying as republican.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Coyote, posted 12-31-2013 11:02 PM RAZD has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 27 of 168 (715065)
12-31-2013 11:02 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by RAZD
12-31-2013 10:42 PM


On the other hand...
So the percentage has dropped among people identifying themselves as republican ... you could have a lot of moderate ex-republicans that now identify as independent because of the tea party idiocy. Doesn't look like they controlled for change in percentage of respondents identifying as republican.
You could also have a lot of ex-Republicans who now identify as independent because of Country Club Republican idiocy.
There is increasingly smaller differences between them and the lefties. It is now just a (small) matter of degree.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by RAZD, posted 12-31-2013 10:42 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 28 by RAZD, posted 01-01-2014 8:45 AM Coyote has not replied
 Message 30 by Diomedes, posted 01-01-2014 11:29 AM Coyote has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 28 of 168 (715078)
01-01-2014 8:45 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Coyote
12-31-2013 11:02 PM


Re: On the other hand...
You could also have a lot of ex-Republicans who now identify as independent because of Country Club Republican idiocy.
There is increasingly smaller differences between them and the lefties. It is now just a (small) matter of degree.
Exactly, and they are more likely to be ones with college degrees and thus more likely to be the faction that accepts evolution.
And the Democratic party seems to be moving to the right to swallow them up from the independents
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Coyote, posted 12-31-2013 11:02 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 29 of 168 (715083)
01-01-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by herebedragons
12-31-2013 9:28 AM


Re: challenge
.
Edited by Percy, : Deleted experiment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by herebedragons, posted 12-31-2013 9:28 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 995
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013


(1)
Message 30 of 168 (715086)
01-01-2014 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 27 by Coyote
12-31-2013 11:02 PM


Re: On the other hand...
There is increasingly smaller differences between them and the lefties. It is now just a (small) matter of degree.
Sadly, that is true.
The lobbying industry is mostly to blame in this regard. With our unending cycles of elections, most politicians spend more time campaigning than they do actually governing. As a result, they have to perform more fundraising. The natural tendency is for them to accept money from donors who have vested interest in the status quo.
They used to say that the Republican party was the party of business while the Democrat party was the party of the people. Both parties are now the parties of business. The people are often simply just instruments to serve the corporate agenda.
And I am not some naysayer out against the corporations. Lobbying comes from all sides including unions, religious affiliations, the medical establishment and our seemingly endless supply of attorneys.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Coyote, posted 12-31-2013 11:02 PM Coyote has not replied

  
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