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Member (Idle past 3598 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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Hi Jon,
Thanks for the thoughtful response. To which I will add: If triangels had a god, it would have three sides. "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Hi Phat,
I will answer with a question: If during the holocaust a German family is hiding a family of jews in the attic. The SS come to the door and ask, are you hiding any jews in here. Is it as sin for the home owner to lie in order to save the jewish family therein? Quid est veritas?"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
this is a tough one. I shall answer based on my beliefs. There are but two basic spirits. The Spirit of truth, love, and creativity does not lie---has never lied---never will lie, in my belief. This is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of the Holy Trinity. It is quite likely...99%...that S.S. officers would not be flowing in this Spirit.
Then there is the father of lies. There is no truth in him. His purpose is to consolidate and hold power at any cost---including killing Jews. My first task would be to identify the spirit behind the question. My second task would be saving lives---even by lies. The people in my attic are honorable people and they do in fact flow with the right spirit. So in summation---yes, I would lie to protect them.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Phat writes: yes, I would lie to protect them. So is lying in the spirit of the greater good a sin or no? If a mother or father are hiding from some enemy troops amoung a group of fellow villiagers. And they will all be put to the sword if found. Is it wrong for the mother to smother her crying baby to save the group? Quid est veratas? "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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ringo Member (Idle past 412 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Who created the father of lies? (Who is the grandfather of lies?)
Then there is the father of lies.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Of course we dont know the exact truth as to how it all happened, but I believe that God created a freewilled Lucifer as a powerful and beautiful angel...not an evil angel directly. Lucifer chose to allow his own ego to blossom and became satan.
I know you will pull up the verse in Isaiah--but I dont believe that God created evil directly. All that was allowed was the possibility of evil...a possibility that was then actualized by Lucifer. Humans inherited the reality of freewill made possible by a dualistic reality.
One thing that is commonly done these days is to view good and evil in a relativistic and personal lens. I expect satan used the same argument before they booted him and his minions out of the government. Of course you have a point if you say that the snake was simply using a political ad to sway the newly created humans to follow his platform. And its also obvious that human nature...even today...campaigns for free will and seeks to place God on equal footing with our own wisdom and choice. You might be right... Personally I choose to believe in an absolute positional power over us rather than a relativistic inner power that leaves us responsible for the outcome...but then again try and see the argument from both sides. Humans keep trying to bring God to their level of reasoning and guessing how God feels and what God would do. God doesnt need to lie. The dress is ugly. You are a sinner. I am one too. We have the awareness of how to do good but we need communion with God. We simply cant do it all ourselves.
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
1.61803 writes: What are her intentions? Which spirit gives her the necessary obligation to smother her child---love for one or love for many? Plus...this same argument can be used to justify slaughtering reprobate nations early in the O.T. Better to kill off a band of cancerous people who will pollute the purity of the chosen ones than to love everybody and let the pagans into the sanctuary. If a mother or father are hiding from some enemy troops among a group of fellow villagers. And they will all be put to the sword if found. Is it wrong for the mother to smother her crying baby to save the group? Now before you all hang me for this outlandish opinion, look at the context and ask yourself these questions:
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Phat writes:
Her intentions are to kill her crying child to save many more lives. What are her intentions? The point I suppose I was getting at is many religions demand certainty and a black or white answer. Life on the other hand is anything but that. We can try as we may to contort our sense of morality and conform to the religious flavor of our choosing.But at the end of the day we are all faced with the shades of gray that make up the pallet of our lives. "Nothing is true, everything is permitted.""You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Her intentions are to kill her crying child to save many more lives. Is the default standard based on number of lives alone? Look at World Wars I, II, and even more recent wars...our side usually kills more of "them" than they do of "us". Is that defacto evil? The standard, I think, involves more than numbers...it involves character...if it be possible to rate such a trait.
Anselm writes: Surely Gods son had greater character value than any one (or even many) of us. In fact it could be argued that His lone death had greater sacrificial value than all of ours on the planet put together. God became man, and by his own death, as we believe and affirm, restored life to the world; when he might have done this, by means of some other being, angelic or human, or merely by his will. Not only the learned, but also many unlearned persons interest themselves in this inquiry and seek for its solution. Wags will often argue that death...for God...was "no big deal nor sacrifice"...but the issue isnt His death having value so much as the issue of sparing our lives having value.
ringo writes: According to Anselm, all power follows the will. Satan was the originator of willful lies...not God. God only made it a possibility. Satan (or the snake, at any rate) made it an actuality.
Who created the father of lies? (Who is the grandfather of lies?) Anselm writes: All power follows the will. For, when I say that I can speak or walk, it is understood, if I choose. For, if the will be not implied as acting, there is no power, but only necessity. For, when I say that I can be dragged or bound unwillingly, this is not my power, but necessity and the power of another; since I am able to be dragged or bound in no other sense than this, that another can drag or bind me. So we can say of Christ, that he could lie, so long as we understand, if he chose to do so. And, since he could not lie unwillingly and could not wish to lie, none the less can it be said that he could not lie. So in this way it is both true that he could and could not lie. add by edit: (since we will go this way anyway )
jar,countless times writes: And jars assumption is based on this:
But in the story it is the serpent who tells the truth and the God character that lies.jar writes: I would argue that humanity has effectively died a spiritual death ever since we learned to think for ourselves. We may have thought that we are more like God the more technologically advanced we get, but it could be argued that we are nowhere near that class... Do they die the very day they eat from the tree? Do they become more like God and get their eyes opened? which leads to the question: Is the greater good in and of the same classification of the greatest good? If the lady refused to smother her baby since in her mind that baby may someday be a great man would she have justifiable cause of risking a dozen lives? Edited by Phat, : No reason given. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Phat writes: If evil ever existed it most certainly does so in war itself.
Is that defacto evil? Phat writes: Fully God and yet fully human.
Surely Gods son had greater character value than any one (or even many) of us.quote:Phat, is it the nobility of character or the defamed and wretched who personify the mercy of Christ. Was that not whole point of God becomming fully human. Mary feeding him mashed bits of food. God stuffing his little face. God learning to walk, to experiance being human? Phat writes:
According to Anselm, all power follows the will. Satan was the originator of willful lies...not God. God only made it a possibility. Satan (or the snake, at any rate) made it an actuality.quote: Edited by 1.61803, : No reason given."You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
God created evil merely by creating free will
Lucifer was exposed (as we all are now) only to the possibility of evil. God did not directly make him choose to rebel, any more than God being guilty of murder by virtue of any one of us doing it. Unless one were to argue that God forced us to be evil by making it so that we could never be equal to Him.
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined:
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Phat writes:
Can freewill exist without evil? Or is one choice over another simply a preference?
God created evil merely by creating free will Phat writes:
Lucifer was a angel, a immortal being of pure intellect. Lucifer was exposed (as we all are now) only to the possibility of evil. God did not directly make him choose to rebel, any more than God being guilty of murder by virtue of any one of us doing it.God created Lucifer, knowing he would betray him and be cast out of heaven. Lucifer was no more responsible for his creation than us. Where is our free will in terms of our own creation? And as far as God not choosing Lucifer to rebel or us to kill,Maybe.... for something to happen something must exist. for there to be death, there must be life. for there to be Good, ....well you know the rest. "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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Phat Member Posts: 18262 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Where is our free will in terms of our own creation? Well...where is our free will in regards to flying? (apart from our ability to build planes) The popular logic among many non believers is that they would choose free will over obedience any day of the week....they cherish the right to decide over choosing God. Believers, on the other hand, claim that either we believe....and submit...or we die. Perhaps our prayer (just in case) should be to ask God for wisdom and insight on what the actual spiritual reality is.
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Raphael Member (Idle past 463 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
My friend Phat enjoys being the ultimate devil's advocate, or in this case the ultimate Lucifer's advocate , providing questions that stir the mind but never quite providing answers. That's something I like about him.
1.61803 writes:
Lucifer was a angel, a immortal being of pure intellect.God created Lucifer, knowing he would betray him and be cast out of heaven. Lucifer was no more responsible for his creation than us. Where is our free will in terms of our own creation? And as far as God not choosing Lucifer to rebel or us to kill, Maybe.... for something to happen something must exist. for there to be death, there must be life. for there to be Good, ....well you know the rest. I agree with your words, friend, but before attributing things to God the text does not say, remember that the bible calls sin the "mystery of iniquity"(2 Thess 2). Sin does indeed exist, but it is quite a mystery. Regards! - Raph
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1.61803 Member (Idle past 1504 days) Posts: 2928 From: Lone Star State USA Joined: |
Raphael writes:
Hello Raphael, another angel eh? Sin does indeed exist, but it is quite a mystery. Sin is a necessary as the betrayal of Christ was. The mystery of faith, we can seek the answers in scripture but we are human and deeply flawed to perfection. Peace "You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs
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