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Member (Idle past 3619 days) Posts: 1811 From: East Asia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Anselm's Doctrine of Substitution | |||||||||||||||||||||||
AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8529 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
Perhaps our prayer (just in case) should be to ask God for wisdom and insight on what the actual spiritual reality is. That has been happening for thousands of years, Phat. The result has been thousands of different, competing, often conflicting, "spiritual realities" each one claiming to be The AnswerTM as revealed by besought prayer. How can there be any The AnswerTM when there appears to be no single god to give a consistent The AnswerTM? This leaves The AnswerTM as a product of the emotional comfort of an individual's faith not as a product of any spiritual reality. And the very act of prayer to some chosen deity, Phat, already presupposes the kind of The AnswerTM the individual is expecting to receive.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So when I fire my shotgun out the window, I'm just allowing the possibility of evil? It takes somebody walking into the shotgun blast to actualize the evil?
All that was allowed was the possibility of evil...a possibility that was then actualized by Lucifer. Phat writes:
I wouldn't say that. I don't see where the snake had any "platform". He was telling the truth. He just didn't mention the consequences, so it was a half-truth. On the other hand, God told an untruth.
Of course you have a point if you say that the snake was simply using a political ad to sway the newly created humans to follow his platform. Phat writes:
That's why apologetics are ultimately circular. It always comes down to, "If it doesn't make any sense, it's because God doesn't think the same way we do. Some things can not be explained." Humans keep trying to bring God to their level of reasoning and guessing how God feels and what God would do. Then why do you try to explain them?
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes: Don't you see the absurdity of this, though? God---by definition---would never need to lie. Having the snake portrayed as the good guy sounds precisely like something a conman would try and sell. And lets think a minute. How do we know that God lied? How do we know that humanity was not supposed to live forever...just as Jesus does? How do we know that we didnt collectively inherit death that day(even if the story is symbolic?)
I wouldn't say that. I don't see where the snake had any "platform". He was telling the truth. He just didn't mention the consequences, so it was a half-truth. On the other hand, God told an untruth.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
That's your absurd definition. God---by definition---would never need to lie. God did lie, whether He had to or not.
Phat writes:
He said they would die "the same day". They didn't. It's possible that He changed His mind and didn't carry through on His threat but that's the only way you can get around it being a lie.
How do we know that God lied? Phat writes:
There you go running in circles again. If it doesn't make sense, "we don't know".
How do we know that humanity was not supposed to live forever...just as Jesus does?
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Anselm begged to differ.
quote:You people seem to believe that mans divine right was autonomy...in fact you would deny God were He to deny you autonomy. My counterpoint is that autonomy, by definition is evil. We were never designed to be gods.
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Raphael Member (Idle past 484 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
.61803 writes: Hello Raphael, another angel eh?Sin is a necessary as the betrayal of Christ was. The mystery of faith, we can seek the answers in scripture but we are human and deeply flawed to perfection. Yessir! Well, to be honest I just liked the name. I totally agree with you. Very well said. I suppose I was cautioning about thinking we have all the answers. But you appear to be an individual of caution and humility, so my warnings were unrequited. Regards!
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
What's the difference between autonomy and free will?
My counterpoint is that autonomy, by definition is evil.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Since we are talking faith/belief I will give you my belief.
What's the difference between autonomy and free will? In a spiritual context-- You don't get to decide that you don't need/want a Creator without some consequence. The consequence is not that you simply end up in Hell...the consequence is that you will inadvertently support one side or the other. There is no way to sit this one out. the online dictionary defines autonomy as "the state of existing or acting separately from others." It defines free will as : the ability to choose how to act or the ability to make choices that are not controlled by fate or God. My argument would be that even if your choices are not controlled by God, they will be judged by God. Lucifer chose autonomy.
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Full circle again. If we are judged by God for making the 'wrong' choice, how do we have free will? A choice between ice cream and a punch in the face is not a real choice.
My argument would be that even if your choices are not controlled by God, they will be judged by God.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
One argument is that Lucifer basically pleaded the same case before God that you do. (not to suggest... )
Why must I listen to you? Can't I be an independent spirit apart from your flow? Why must I be you? Can't I be like you?
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
So why don't you play Lucifer's advocate and answer those questions? Pretend, just for a moment, that the apologetics you've been spoon-fed are not the be-all and end-all of knowledge. Pretend, just for a moment, that God isn't the idiot portrayed by the apologists.
Why must I listen to you? Can't I be an independent spirit apart from your flow? Why must I be you? Can't I be like you?
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
ringo writes:
OK...This may take some practice, though.
So why don't you play Lucifer's advocate and answer those questions? Pretend, just for a moment, that the apologetics you've been spoon-fed are not the be-all and end-all of knowledge. Pretend, just for a moment, that God isn't the idiot portrayed by the apologists. GOD: State your case, angel.
ME OK. Listen, I've enjoyed working here. You taught me a lot. Its just that I want to be loved and worshiped for a change. Why is it that you get all the glory? Its not as if you need it--you have everything you could possibly want! If you truly are fair and unbiased, is it too much to ask that I have my own franchise with my name on it and that people that dont want to listen to a higher authority---like me---be allowed to be their own authority? We want autonomy, Boss. Is that too much to ask?
GOD Done. With ONE proviso. I have the copyright on love for GOD as well as the name and concept of original Creator.
ME OK, that was my one gripe, anyway. I wanted to do things my way. I don't seek to be a bad guy. I just want the right to not listen to all the stuff you have spoon-fed me and that my family mindlessly believes. I wanna try things on my own. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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jar Member (Idle past 415 days) Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
And once again Phat, where is your support for Lucifer's desire for autonomy, or that Lucifer wanted to be worshiped or that Lucifer wanted to not listen to a higher authority?
Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!
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ringo Member (Idle past 433 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
See what I mean about making God look like an idiot? Why would He be so petty?
I have the copyright on love for GOD as well as the name and concept of original Creator.
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Phat Member Posts: 18299 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.1 |
Lets see what Anselm thought:
quote: I can see where Anselm promoted the doctrine of original sin, and of Christs substitution for our deserved death...but it appears that Anselm also emphasized that Christ--as human---did this as an act of his own will. Anselm writes: when any creature wishes to do a thing that is left entirely at his own disposal, we say that he ought to do it, for what he wishes to be ought to be. So our Lord Jesus, when he wished, as we have said, to suffer death, ought to have done precisely what he did; because he ought to be what he wished, and was not bound to do anything as a debt. As he is both God and man, in connection with his human nature, which made him a man, he must also have received from the Divine nature that control over himself which freed him from all obligation, except to do as he chose. ringo writes: Are you suggesting that God leaves the idea of worship and obligation entirely at our choice and will? That even if we chose to become atheists and chose to look to no other higher source than ourselves that He would honor it? This is getting scary...and interesting.
See what I mean about making God look like an idiot? Why would He be so petty?
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