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Junior Member (Idle past 3494 days) Posts: 28 From: Australia Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You're contradicting God. He told Cain that if we do well we will be accepted. He didn't say He was setting us up to fail.
Yes, we should try and do our best. But we will fail.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
are you assuming that God talks the same way today as He did with Cain? Progressive Dispensationalists would beg to differ.
Stam writes: Gods principles never change, but the way that He deals with humans has...if you will pardon the term, evolved.
Human Government was instituted after the flood, with Noah (Gen. 9:6), thedispensation of promise began with Abram (Gen. 12:1-3), "the law was given by Moses" (John 1:17), "grace and truth came by Jesus Christ" (John 1:17) and was dispensed by Paul, the chief of sinners, saved by grace (Eph. 3:1-3).
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frako Member (Idle past 333 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
Gods principles never change, but the way that He deals with humans has...if you will pardon the term, evolved. Yea it seems right about the time we got video cameras he stopped, showing up in person or a talking burning bush, he stopped throwing boulders at enemy armies, stopped stopping the earth's rotation so his chosen people would have more time to kill ...... i guess hes camera shy or he would pop up at the super bowl one night and tell the world who's got it right the old testament jews, the new testament Christians, the new new testament Muslims, the Marsian testament Mormons .... Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
You answered your own question:
are you assuming that God talks the same way today as He did with Cain?quote:The principle that we can resist evil hasn't changed.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: And how do we resist it? The Bible tells us...
The principle that we can resist evil hasn't changed. Revelation 12:10-11 writes: 10Then I heard a loud voice in heaven, saying, "Now the salvation, and the power, and the kingdom of our God and the authority of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren has been thrown down, he who accuses them before our God day and night. 11"And they overcame him because of the blood of the Lamb and because of the word of their testimony, and they did not love their life even when faced with death. Are you suggesting that if we believed that the lamb was fictional and symbolic and all we did was hand out spare change and help old ladies empty their trash we would have a shining testimony? I might agree with you if I were convinced that God didnt care whether He was mentioned in our testimony or not....but I feel that He wants to be mentioned because by glorifying Him we are better people than simply glorifying our Cub Scout list of good deeds. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
One day at a time.
And how do we resist it? quote:It probably isn't significant but I like the way the Revelation is narrated in the past tense. The "prophet" doesn't talk about something that will happen in the future; he talks about something he saw happening. You seem to be another foolish virgin who's so anxious to see Jesus coming that you don't notice He's already here.
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Raphael Member (Idle past 490 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
Haha Phat you are too kind. I don't claim to have any advice for wiser minds. Just thought I'd stop by, wish everyone happy holidays, see if Jar is still brilliant, you know .
But I'll do my best to stay on-topic. I think this is an interesting one for sure. I'm coming into it a bit late, but I'd love to throw some things out there.
faitheist writes:
Did God plan the whole thing? Was the life and times of Jesus, including his death and the betrayal by Judas all part of God's plan? A great question, one that makes sense to ask considering the circumstances of Christ's death. I have been through some of this thread, but not the whole thing so if I'm rehashing things just let me know and I'll sit back down It seems to me that in order to ask this question, we need to backpedal and ask a few bigger-picture questions. The reason being: Trying to answer a clearly biblically-based question is to assume that the Bible is a legitimate source of reference. Asking if the crucifixion was "all part of God's plan" is to assume that, by the nature of the question, there is a God. Therefore I am going to assume we are talking about The bible within the context that it can be trusted, since you inferred that it can with your question. My questions: - Was Jesus a real historical figure?- If he was, can the things he said about himself be taken seriously? Assuming the Bible is a reliable source, what are some things he said about himself that confirm his testimony? - If he wasn't, why even ask about the crucifixion? - If God did not plan the crucifixion, and it just "happened," how would that affect christianity? Again, excuse me if I'm treading lukewarm water here, but I believe in order to ask a question like that, some things have to be established, you know? - Raph Edited by Raphael, : No reason given. Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
My questions: - Was Jesus a real historical figure?--I believe so.- If he was, can the things he said about himself be taken seriously?yes...why not? Assuming the Bible is a reliable source, what are some things he said about himself that confirm his testimony? - If he wasn't, why even ask about the crucifixion? - If God did not plan the crucifixion, and it just "happened," how would that affect christianity?It would change everything.I don't buy jars argument that Jesus life was more important than His death and that He was simply a great teacher showing us how to live. Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
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Raphael Member (Idle past 490 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined: |
Again, I don't mean to detract from the ongoing conversation, so if that's what I'm doing call me out.
Awesome. So. If we're saying that Jesus is not only a real historical figure, but that the things he said can be trusted (or at least for the sake of the argument), all we can do to answer the question is look at what Jesus says himself. We find the story in John 10:14-18. Jesus has just healed a man born blind on the Jewish Sabbath, causing the Jewish religious sect known as the "Pharisees" to freak out and not only cast this healed man out of the temple, but redouble their efforts to destroy Jesus. These scriptures are Jesus speaking to those same Pharisees after calling them blind, trying to help them understand the reality of his mission.
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father. - John 10:14-18 (ESV) I won't claim to have the wisdom to try and exegesis here, it's much too easy to read my own beliefs into the text. But I think it is fair to say that here we get to see Jesus basically answer our question. What does the text say? -Raph
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Raphael writes:
Assuming that Jesus was a real historical figure, there is no reason to think he was any more truthful - or more honest in self-assessment - than any other historical figure.
- Was Jesus a real historical figure?- If he was, can the things he said about himself be taken seriously?
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Its too funny around here, Raphael. One day we will attempt to quote biblical text (usually from John) and the critics will say that redactors actually wrote the book and that the text reflects that bias...another day we will attempt to explain the meaning of what God meant to say and our critics will use the very same Bible that they rejected and show us "what the text says." The christianity that is pushed here is mainly a works based humanist based ideology that does not lean on God for anything other than to tell us that we are responsible for helping humanity and will be judged accordingly.(Matthew 25 again)
jar preaches: quote:which I wouldnt be so concerned about except that he insists that most Christians will be goats. He has little investment in the idea of Christ atoning for us. Having been raised around many Jews, he embraces the idea that atonement is our responsibility. Ringo is his "robin" (he is batman) and wholeheartedly agrees with him. I love the people who are here, but the theology frustrates me...they simply won't embrace the power of the resurrection.
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Raphael Member (Idle past 490 days) Posts: 173 From: Southern California, United States Joined:
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ringo writes: Assuming that Jesus was a real historical figure, there is no reason to think he was any more truthful - or more honest in self-assessment - than any other historical figure. Gotcha. A fair assessment . So if, by that train of thought, Jesus is no more credible or invalid as any other historical figure, and the question is "was Jesus' crucifixion all part of God's plan?" we see him answering the question here, in his own words. I think we try to overcomplicate things sometimes I know I sure have. In the same way, we could take the words of another historical figure, Napoleon Bonaparte, and asses his values.
quote: No way am I smart enough to have that quote memorized haha. The power of Google. But. If we're merely looking at Jesus as a historical figure, then what he says should tell us a lot about who he is, and what his mission was. Who does he seem to be to you?
Phat writes: ...we will attempt to quote biblical text and the critics will say that redactors actually wrote the book and that the text reflects that bias...another day we will attempt to explain the meaning of what God meant to say and our critics will use the very same Bible that they rejected... Haha. Phat my friend, our problem is we get into unnecessary arguments. We try and argue the little things, the details, and we try to do it on the non-believer's terms. We try to prove the existence of God with science. I know I have tried. Which is a paradox because science cannot prove the existence of a "great other." That's not its job. It only can tell us what we can observe, hypothesize, and/or test. When it really comes down to it, belief in something outside of ourselves takes one thing: faith. That's really it haha. Sure there's evidence, sure there's history, sure there's personal experience, but it really just comes down to the question: will you believe in something incredible? Something that, in reality, doesn't make sense? For me, believing has changed my life. My God is to be trusted. But that's subjective .
Phat writes:
I love the people who are here, but the theology frustrates me...they simply won't embrace the power of the resurrection. Haha. And that's the fun of it buddy. I love all you guys! It's been awhile, but it's fun to see the names from years ago here. I'd rather keep up the debates, maintain that camaraderie, than be a jerk and try and convert everyone. Jesus does the heartstring thing. So it's chilll Edited by Raphael, : No reason given.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Assuming that Jesus was a real historical figure, there is no reason to think he was any more truthful - or more honest in self-assessment - than any other historical figure. Some say that he was sent to teach us how to live. Others believe that He was sent to die...becoming a once and forever atonement of humanities shortcomings.
jar writes: Thus Jesus would be an example for us not only in how he lived, but in how He died. They did not take His life. He gave it.
Real worship is what you do, not what you say.
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Phat Member Posts: 18348 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
jar writes: Jesus was this message. Remember the parable of the owner of the vineyard? They killed his son, too. Only a total evil fool of a God would demand that his only son get sacrificed before he forgave humans. An God of any reason, intellect and mercy would say "Look, killing folk makes no sense. Remember Isaac? How many times must I tell you that human sacrifice does not please me and you need to stop that? God never demanded that Jesus be sacrificed. God foreknew that humans would be stupid enough to kill him, though.
jar writes: Before Jesus came, GOD was unable to communicate to humans...not due to His inability but due to our inability. We were just ants. GOD had to send an ant to tell the ants some things. If Hell exists, we would have lacked the intelligence and trust to get out of hell ourselves. So yes, salvation was a free gift. It also cheapens Jesus but then cheapening Jesus seems to be a basic tenet of the Christian Cult of Ignorance. In the CCoI Jesus is nothing but a get outta hell free card. I don't see why you think this causes us to be slackers in regards to daily personal responsibility. Its almost like you are like a kid learning to ride his two wheeler. He doesn't want Daddy to help hold him up...he wants to show daddy that He can do it.Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
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ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You could say the same about John Dillinger or Charles Manson and it would be equally meaningless.
They did not take His life. He gave it. Phat writes:
Atonement is a really stupid concept.
Others believe that He was sent to die...becoming a once and forever atonement of humanities shortcomings.
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