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Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: are "stand your ground" laws license to kill? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
No, I don't think it was but it doesn't matter. As I said, the defense did not invoke the stand your ground defense, which is all I claimed and that much is factual. Zimmerman had his back on the ground with Trayvon banging his head on the sidewalk so a case could be made for self defense straight out. If it could be proved that Zimmerman had attacked, not just followed or possibly confronted Trayvon, then perhaps Zimmerman might have been convicted of at least manslaughter.
My personal feelings about this case is that it is a tragedy. If Zimmerman wasn't packing heat he might have stayed in his SUV and if Trayvon wasn't so young and full of testosterone he might not have confronted Zimmerman. Just as an aside, early on the national media did a very poor job of presenting this case which skewed what actually happened. The local media did a much better job. I just had one more comment about your earlier post where you said that the police had told Zimmerman to stand down. What actually occurred was that the police dispatcher had responded to Zimmerman's statement that he was going to follow Trayvon on foot and she responded that "OK, we don't need you to do that". This is not the police telling him to "stand down". I might be picking nits but this is the sort of glossing over of the facts that caused this event to snowball in the national coverage like that his was a white on black issue when Zimmerman self identifies as Hispanic.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
... Zimmerman had his back on the ground with Trayvon banging his head on the sidewalk so a case could be made for self defense straight out. ... Sorry, the only evidence for that is Zimmerman, and from what I have seen it is rather questionable at best:
DNA Report does NOT support Zimmerman's claim that Trayvon Martin caused his injuriesDid Trayvon Martin attack George Zimmerman first? George Zimmerman: Left hand, right holster So I don't buy it. Curiously I think you should have more evidence than just your word if you kill someone.
... his was a white on black issue when Zimmerman self identifies as Hispanic. White mother Hispanic father, with known bias against blacks. You don't have to be white to be a bigot. Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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No, I don't think it was but it doesn't matter. As I said, the defense did not invoke the stand your ground defense, which is all I claimed and that much is factual. It does indeed matter. Because it means that even if your comment was literally correct, you have not addressed the issue being raised. Unless you address that then the fact that the defense was not invoked is just an NRA sound bite. When 'stand your ground' is invoked, then the judge holds a hearing and if the defendant is successful, there is no trial. No such hearing was held for either Zimmerman or Dunn. However, aspects of 'stand your ground' were included in the jury instructions of each case, and I would argue that the result is quite problematic. In the hearing, Zimmerman and Dunn would at least have to put on evidence that the met the requirements of the law. But in an actual trial, Dunn did not have to do any such thing. The jury could instead consider whether the state had dis-proven the idea of self-defense. In Dunn's case, no evidence that the teens had weapons was presented. There is no way that Dunn could have prevailed at a stand your ground hearing. On the other hand, Dunn says he thought he saw a shotgun barrel, and that turns out to be enough for three of the twelve jurors, particularly given the jury instructions based on 'stand your ground'. Well just how skimpy a story will always be enough when scary black kids are involved? Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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Theodoric Member Posts: 9142 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: Member Rating: 3.3 |
Zimmerman Juror Says Panel Considered Stand Your Ground In Deliberations: ‘He Had A Right To Defend Himself
And on the latest case it looks like some jurors wanted to let Dunn get away with murder.
Juror: Some On Panel Thought The Killing Of Unarmed Teen Jordan Davis Was ‘Justified’ Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
When 'stand your ground' is invoked, then the judge holds a hearing and if the defendant is successful, there is no trial. No such hearing was held for either Zimmerman or Dunn. However, aspects of 'stand your ground' were included in the jury instructions of each case, and I would argue that the result is quite problematic. In the hearing, Zimmerman and Dunn would at least have to put on evidence that the met the requirements of the law. But in an actual trial, Dunn did not have to do any such thing. The jury could instead consider whether the state had dis-proven the idea of self-defense. At a minimum then, there should be a ruling that no element of the "stand your ground" law can be used unless a hearing is held. Does this need to go to the supreme court to get rid of it?by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tempe 12ft Chicken Member (Idle past 356 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined:
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NoNukes writes: Well just how skimpy a story will always be enough when scary black kids are involved? The Daily Show's Jessica Williams discusses Stand your Ground laws. The color is not great on this video, but it was the only full version on YouTube I could find. Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1426 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
So why is it shown backwards (mirrored) and blue? weird.
by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Tempe 12ft Chicken Member (Idle past 356 days) Posts: 438 From: Tempe, Az. Joined:
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No idea, let me see if I can find a better version just on the Daily Show's website...
.....Here we go: Oops, incorrect...try again... This be the correct one:
The Daily Show: Unjustified with Jessica Williams Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given. Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams
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hooah212002 Member (Idle past 822 days) Posts: 3193 Joined: |
whoops
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given."Science is interesting, and if you don't agree you can fuck off." -Dawkins
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NoNukes Inactive Member |
At a minimum then, there should be a ruling that no element of the "stand your ground" law can be used unless a hearing is held. Since stand your ground is part of self defense, I don't see how you do that without repealing the law.
Does this need to go to the supreme court to get rid of it? What would be the basis in federal or constitutional law? Would your complaint be too much deference to criminal defendants? After all, a trial is about the defendants guilt and not payback revenge. I don't see a slam dunk federal issue and the Supreme Court does not decide pure state law issues. Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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