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Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
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Author | Topic: Why Evolution works inside Ecologies | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
The ecology is the matrix within which species live and evolve. This is demonstrated by this video:
All the organisms within an ecology work by interactions with all the other organisms, and no one species can be considered on it's own. Ecology: the branch of biology dealing with the relations and interactions between organisms and their environment, including other organisms. ... from Greek oikos house (hence, environment) My dad was an ecologist before it was a household word ... Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Trees On The Move As Temperature Zones Shift 3.8 Feet A Day
quote: So the ecology changes, and that means organisms need to adapt or die. There will likely be many extinctions due to climate change ... ... and many new speciations as organisms adapt. Testable predictions based on the ecology of living organisms. Whether it happens sufficiently fast to convince the hide-bound skeptics before we are affected is another question. So it is possible that trees will adapt faster than humans. Note that these are measured changes, not predictions. Enjoyby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
debate topic, probably Biological Evolution.
The idea here is to look at the matrix of life to show how evolutionary biology best explains the web of interactions rather than concentrating on single species. Ecology predicts how species will react to new predators (Message 1) Ecology predicts how species will react to global warming (Message 2) Creationism can't predict either. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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That's a great story and a great video. Can't see what there might be to argue about though except that they're still wolves..... And you are focusing on the single species view ...
The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities. It is the ecological environment that determines the selection pressures on organisms. Deer and elk change behavior due to the predation behavior of the wolves, that changes the vegetation growing in various areas. Global warming changes the growing zones of plants and that changes their growth patterns and the location\habitats of the organisms that depend on the plants. As plants move up mountains they will become isolated populations, as will many animals that feed on them, creating reproductive isolation in mountain "islands". Or they move closer to the poles and into different geological environments, and respond to new ecological challenges\opportunities. Speciation will occur: this is a prediction based on the change in ecology that is underway ... we (if we survive) will likely observe punctuated evolution ... Enjoy. Edited by RAZD, : sby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
I expect we will see a massive, global restructuring of our flora and fauna in the next couple decades. Our world is going to look radically different in the very near future. Indeed, I expect this to be an extinction event, and the only question is how big it is compared to previous ones.
The concern that most ecologists / biologist have regarding this is the rate at which the change is occurring. While a few may survive and even thrive as a result of climate change, the majority of species will probably not be able adapt fast enough to keep up with the current rate of climate change. And as you say, it could well be linked to lengths of generations, favoring shorter reproductive cycles. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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... But of course I do have to point out that the evolution you are talking about is nothing but evolution within the Kind or "microevolution" as opposed to your implication that such changes validate the ToE itself. ... And as has been pointed out so many times to you that one almost has to predicate every new post to you with it,
The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities. By itself it doesn't implicate anything except that changing ecologies can put different selection pressures on breeding populations, especially ones that are not well adapted to the changes. The patterns of ecological shift can be observed and their effect on breeding populations can be observed. When the shift results in islands of ecosystems, then we can predict that reproductive isolation will occur for some breeding populations that cannot interact with populations in other islands. We can predict that this will result in differential adaptations for the different islands as they continue to change, and that this can result in speciation. As we observe the continued effects of evolution over several generations, the accumulation of changes from generation to generation may become sufficient for individuals to develop combinations of traits that are observably different from the original parent populations. This lineal change within species is sometimes called phyletic change in species, or phyletic variation, and when distinct enough from the original parent population it is sometimes called phyletic speciation. This is also sometimes called arbitrary speciation in that the place to draw the line between linearly evolved genealogical populations is subjective, and because the definition of species in general is tentative and sometimes arbitrary.
The process of divergent speciation involves the division of a parent population into two or more reproductively isolated daughter populations, which then are free to (micro) evolve independently of each other. The processes of evolution and subsequent phyletic variation, and the process of divergent speciation have all been observed in similar conditions for breeding populations separated by geographic isolation ... these observed processes are not theory but observed fact. Fact that you have acknowledged. This thread's purpose is to put those observed facts into an overall picture of interactions of all the organisms within an ecology and between organisms and the environment as the environment changes, and the ecology shifts as organisms adapt.
Since I've already so many times answered the question "what prevents microevolution from becoming macroevolution?" I hope it doesn't get repeated here again, but maybe I should start collecting the posts where I've answered it so I can just put up links. Too bad I never think of that. We've agreed not to talk about "macroevolution" until we agree on what it means, and that it would take another thread to do that ... if you are interested. Furthermore, I don't need to discuss macroevolution for this thread, as the focus is on changing ecology and the effects on the adaptations within breeding populations. Thus I am looking into the future rather than the past, making observations, making testable predictions, all in the observable present ... doing science.
However, the ecological questions you are raising are interesting in themselves. Carry on. Ecology - Wikipedia
quote: The biodiversity of an ecology is like the genetic diversity of a species, where the number of species is similar to the number of alleles, and all creatures large and small are important. Edited by RAZD, : splgby our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
These are some of the traits that can help predict whether a plant will be invasive (animals are similar, but I haven't studied invasive animals as extensively as I have plants) - high reproductive rate- short time to reproductive age - rapid growth rate - generalized niche requirements; ability to exploit new niches - release from predation - ability to extend growing season beyond natives - produce novel interspecific competitive systems (ie. allelopathy, dense vegetative canopies) - significant phenotypic variation Invasion can also be thought of as a special case of succession, And is also a description of how the punk in punk-eek occurs, as I had noted in Differential Dispersal Of Introduced Species - An Aspect of Punctuated Equilibrium. Rabbits in Australia could be added to that thread.
So my realization here is how similar global warming is to invasive species ecology and the same characteristics that predict invasiveness will be selected for by climate change. So what we are likely to see is an extinction event much like the K-T extinction where whole groups of organisms are eliminated and only a small subset make it through. Here the ecology is invading the species ... with a little help from us. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Anything observable is microevolution. But do carry on. All observed evolution from one generation to the next is "microevolution" -- the evolution that occurs within each and every breeding population -- and this is the way "microevolution" is defined in science (and what is meant when talking about evolution in breeding populations). All the processes that produce evolutionary change are processes of "microevolution" -- the processes that produce variation/s within breeding populations and the process that continue in daughter populations that become isolated from other populations within an overall species breeding population that lead to reproductive isolation and (divergent) speciation. Again, this is already covered in Message 12. What we are looking for is how the overall ecology reacts to environmental change, and the shifts in selection pressures on the breeding populations within ecologies as they become fragmented (climbing mountains or moving towards the poles). Geographic isolation is bound to occur for many species, or if not for the species themselves then ones they interact with (prey\predator, symbiosis, plant\animal\bacterial, etc). One way to look at it is via invasive species as Herebedragons has mentioned, another is to look at island biogeography. An excellent very readable book on this topic is:
The Song of the Dodo by David Quammen:
quote: Here we have a good introduction to Wallace, Darwin's main competitor in developing his theories of natural selection and speciation. Alfred Russel Wallace - Wikipedia
quote: Biogeography - Wikipedia
quote: And again, we see that global climate change is going to have an effect that can be studied through observations on the changes in biogeographic diversity. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Can we get back to ecological change and the effect on the webs of life ?
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
Ecological succession - Wikipedia
quote: With global warming we should expect succession like behavior in moving towards more favorable conditions for existing plants that are intolerant of the changes, and this should also result in movement of the species dependent on the vegetation and predators that depend on the ones dependent on the vegetation. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) |
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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Let's take another example: the Galapagos\Darwin finches as studied by the Grants:
Evolution: Library: Finch Beak Data Sheet
quote: The environment changed to dryer conditions, and that affected the plants that were growing, favoring plants with hard seeds. The finches then changed to larger beaks that are better able to break the seeds. So we should expect drought conditions to favor birds with larger beaks as the drought becomes prolonged, as in California. The finches were on an island without competition from other birds, while here on the continent I would expect the change would be reflected in the different frequencies of the species of birds in the area. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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As usual, all you are doing is ASSERTING that mutations are the cause of genetic changes. The evidence does not prove that mutation caused any of it, such as the blackness of the pocket mice. All that is necessary is that a normally-occurring recessive allele become paired up [abe]: and prolific in the population under selection pressure, and perhaps there are other genetic routes to the same result, but mutation does not have to be one of them. [/abe] It's the same situation as with the peppered moth. All this is is Mendelian type inheritance. Again you are merely ASSUMING mutation. Mutations or not mutations is NOT the topic. Working inside ecologies we see a disruptive ecological change -- volcanic lava flow covers previous habitats. Now we can look at the ecological succession of species as they colonize a disrupted area: Ecological succession - Wikipedia
quote: In this case we have lava flows creating a new bare rock environment, so the first thing we should see are the pioneering species, including the grasses, then the animals that can feed on the vegetation, such as the mice, and then the predators that feed on the mice. As each wave colonizes this area they add selection pressure to the existing organisms, so the plants and animals adapt. Whether there was a mutation or the mice had a melanic allele that (like the Peppered Moths) provided better protection from predators, there certainly was a shift to black mice in these areas that exhibited a lot of black lava rock. The frequencies of the alleles in the mice population shifted from tan to black predominance. Again, fur color is not a major change, but this was selected because of survival pressure. The area of the lava flows would have an impact on this type of selection, with small areas not likely to have such sub-population separation and selection - it would need to be big enough that mice moving into the center would be less likely to vacate the area during the day but forage in it at night. Likewise climate change would be a large area shift in environmental change and so we should tend to see rather permanent adaptations to these changes for species that stay in one place. Edited by RAZD, : sub Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
We OBSERVE that mutations are the cause of genetic changes. What I am much more interested in on this thread is how ecological changes are observed and what we can predict from those observations. As an analogy species are the genes of the ecosystem. As the species change the frequencies of these "alleles" change and the ecology evolves. For this thread we can say that (micro)evolution is a fact, as we are working in the present, and it has been observed. So we do not need to go into the mechanics and mechanisms of evolution here (feel happy to discuss it elsewhere). I want to look at the bigger picture. How does the change in the mice affect the ecology? For this question it doesn't matter how the mice change, just that they do. By being more camouflaged they make it harder for predators (hawks, foxes, etc) and they can spread out into the lava fields. They affect the growth of grasses, while distributing seeds and nutrients, adding to the biomass, providing fertile ground (intentional) for bacteria to work on creating soils that can then support more substantial vegetation (bushes etc). With drought conditions this succession is limited to desert tolerant species (or species that can become desert tolerant). But some places will likely experience greater moisture, floods, etc. and the ecological shift will be in a different direction in those areas. Edited by RAZD, : detail Edited by RAZD, : ..by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
With the pocket mouse example we can also see how evolution of ecosystems is affected by geographic distance. There are actually two black lava islands in the study that are separated by hundreds of miles. There is simply no way for the mutations that cause the black allele to spread to the mice next to that other black lava island due to the strong negative selection in the light colored desert. Guess what? There are still black mice on that other black lava field, but they don't have the same mutations as the other black mice. Black fur actually evolved twice through different mechanisms at each of the black islands. And I agree with Faith that this is interesting but should be discussed on Introduction to Genetics, where she has posted an answer Message 222.
It could change it drastically. Mice can transport seeds and "fertilizer" where it wasn't present before. This can produce new niches for plants, and other species that depend on them. However, these are probably going to be micro-ecosystems given the relative size of the lava fields. Like I said before, these are islands of lava. While not quite as drastic, this is like a new volcanic island rising out of the ocean with no other islands around for miles. What you will see is a dynamic interaction between the environment and species as the species evolve to take advantage of the newly opened niches. So we would have some organisms, like the black mice, living on an island in a sea of tan soil, and some organisms, like grass, that aren't directly affected by the rock\soil type. A mixture of island biogeographic and normal biogeographic distributions. With climate change, those that are on these islands will need to adapt to the changes, while those not on these islands can move with the climate changes to try to maintian their preferred ecology. by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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