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Author Topic:   Ancient Biblical ritual saves MILLIONS of lives
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 1 of 98 (720574)
02-25-2014 7:35 AM


Bs'd
About 4000 years ago God told Abraham to circumcise himself and his male descendants. This practice is still done by Jews and Arabs, all descendants of Abraham, while also some others have adopted this practice.
And it turns out that this Biblical command is literally a life saver, which has in the last decades saved many millions of lives, by preventing evil diseases, amongst them deadly ones like AIDS.
More than 40 studies have shown that circumcised males have a strongly reduced chance for AIDS infection, and in countries where AIDS is rampant, for instance Africa, and where people have to live of less than $2 a day, and AIDS medication costs between $10 and more than $30 a day, there AIDS is a death sentence.
And since male circumcision prevents the majority of AIDS infections, therefore it is a mega-life saver:
"A preliminary analysis by Halperin and Malcolm Potts, MD, PhD, Bixby Professor of Population and Family Planning at the UC Berkeley School of Public Health, estimates that the practice of male circumcision has so far prevented at least 8 million HIV infections in the 15 African and Asian countries cited in the editorial review alone."
And it not only strongly reduces the chances of AIDS, but also of penile cancer, prostate cancer, cancer of the cervix by the partner of the circumcised man, and more.
For the finer details look HERE
So we see that the divine laws from the Torah a literally life savers, like it is written:
"Take to heart all the words I have solemnly declared to you this day, so that you may command your children to obey carefully all the words of this law. 47 They are not just idle words for youthey are your life. By them you will live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to possess.
Deut 32


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 02-25-2014 8:44 AM Eliyahu has replied
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 Message 23 by Faith, posted 02-25-2014 1:50 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 28 by Pressie, posted 02-25-2014 10:44 PM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 45 by frako, posted 02-26-2014 8:31 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 3 of 98 (720576)
02-25-2014 8:50 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by AdminPhat
02-25-2014 8:44 AM


Re: Which Forum?
Bs'd
Interesting question.
Let's put it in "is it science?"


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by AdminPhat, posted 02-25-2014 8:44 AM AdminPhat has replied

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 25 of 98 (720636)
02-25-2014 4:55 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by Faith
02-25-2014 1:50 PM


Trying to give all this a medical meaning is to give a worldly meaning where an unworldly meaning was intended
Bs'd
Fact of the matter is, it HAS a medical meaning.
Fact is, it saved and is saving millions of lives.
Hard to overlook that medical meaning.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Faith, posted 02-25-2014 1:50 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 5:01 PM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 30 of 98 (720653)
02-25-2014 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by New Cat's Eye
02-25-2014 5:01 PM


You haven't ruled out coincidence, so no, its not a fact of the matter.
Bs'd
Coincedence or not, it is a fact that that Biblical ritual saves millions of lives and prevents untold human suffering.
And that is not the only Biblical law that turns out to be very benificial. If you keep on stacking "coincidence" on "coincicence", then it becomes very silly to keep on believing in coincidence.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-25-2014 5:01 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by dwise1, posted 02-26-2014 12:17 AM Eliyahu has not replied
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 31 of 98 (720654)
02-25-2014 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Coyote
02-25-2014 11:12 PM


Re: The unkindest cut of all...
Any correlation between circumcision and arid regions where there is insufficient water for bathing (or cultures which did not emphasize bathing). Hmmmm.
Bs'd
The Torah emphasizes bathing and circumcision. For many reasons you are obligated to wash yourself:
Exodus 30:20
Whenever they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water so that they will not die.
Exodus 30:19
Aaron and his sons are to wash their hands and feet with water from it.
Exodus 29:4
Then bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the tent of meeting and wash them with water.
Exodus 19:10
And the Lord said to Moses, Go to the people and consecrate them today and tomorrow. Have them wash their clothes
Leviticus 11:25
Whoever picks up one of their carcasses must wash their clothes, and they will be unclean till evening.
Leviticus 13:6
On the seventh day the priest is to examine them again, and if the sore has faded and has not spread in the skin, the priest shall pronounce them clean; it is only a rash. They must wash their clothes, and they will be clean.
Leviticus 14:8
The person to be cleansed must wash their clothes, shave off all their hair and bathe with water; then they will be ceremonially clean.
Leviticus 14:47
Anyone who sleeps or eats in the house must wash their clothes.
Leviticus 14:8
The person to be cleansed must wash their clothes, shave off all their hair and bathe with water;
Leviticus 15:6
Whoever sits on anything that the man with a discharge sat on must wash their clothes and bathe with water, and they will be unclean till evening.
There is much more like this. No hygiene problems amongst the Israelites.
But hygiene does not come into the picture for preventing AIDS.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Coyote, posted 02-25-2014 11:12 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 32 of 98 (720656)
02-26-2014 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Phat
02-25-2014 10:46 AM


So is there any current evidence that uncircumcised men...today...are a greater health risk?
Bs'd
There is overwhelming evidence that uncircumcised men are three times more likely to be infected with AIDS.
They have about two times more chance to be infected with the HPV virus, which causes prostate cancer and cancer of the cervix.
Also the chance for other STD's goes down.
Circumcised infants have about 10 times less chance for an urinary tract infection, which is very painfull, and in some cases when it reaches the kidneys, is fatal.
Infant circumcision gives almost 100% protection against penile cancer.
So yes, uncircumcised men are at greater health risk.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Phat, posted 02-25-2014 10:46 AM Phat has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 33 of 98 (720657)
02-26-2014 12:07 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Faith
02-25-2014 2:05 PM


Circumcision is also symbolic, symbolic of the removal of the "flesh" or the "world" from around the "heart" which is symbolic of the human spirit, thus releasing the human spirit which had been buried in the flesh. God is making for himself a spiritual people out of a fleshly people. This was fulfilled through the Messiah, Jesus Christ, as were all the other symbols and types of the Old Testament.
Bs'd
Christianity threw all Gods laws overboard, replaced it with paganism, introduces an extra man-god; the "son", and runs after a messiah who didn't fulfill the messianic prophecies.
And then they think they are the new chosen people....


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Faith, posted 02-25-2014 2:05 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Faith, posted 02-26-2014 1:13 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 34 of 98 (720658)
02-26-2014 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Pressie
02-25-2014 10:44 PM


Couldn't he have just given them a recipe for producing a bar of soap? That would have been much less traumatic than cutting the skin off.
Bs'd
A bar of soap doesn't prevent most AIDS cases.
And infant circumcision is not traumatic.
I regularly watch circumcisions in my community, and baby's don't appear to be traumatized.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, Cambridge professor department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Pressie, posted 02-25-2014 10:44 PM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by TrueCreation, posted 02-26-2014 12:49 AM Eliyahu has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 50 of 98 (720715)
02-27-2014 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Theodoric
02-25-2014 10:00 AM


evidently this perfect god dude screwed up.
Bs'd
No, the humans He created and whom He gave free will, they screwed up.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Theodoric, posted 02-25-2014 10:00 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 51 of 98 (720716)
02-27-2014 2:11 AM
Reply to: Message 45 by frako
02-26-2014 8:31 AM


Yea but you forgot the best ritual to cure leprosy, it really works and these scientists just laugh at the bible how dare they.
Leviticus 14:1-57
I wonder why doctors don just preform this ritual to heal the lepers why do they insist on giving them the unholy dapsone and rifampicin cures. And it takes 6 months boy are scientist idiots for not listening to the bible.
Bs'd
We're not talking about leprosy, but about circumcision, which has recently saved millions of lives, and prevented untold human suffering, and is still saving lives on a mega scale right now.
But let's talk the Torah laws on leprosy.
Leviticus says that a leper must be quarantined: But if the priest examines it and there is no white hair in the spot and if it is not more than skin deep and has faded, then the priest is to isolate them for seven days. Lev 13:26
When they were positively identified as being lepers, they had to live outside the camp, without contact with normal society: Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt, cover the lower part of their face and cry out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’ 46As long as they have the disease they remain unclean. They must live alone; they must live outside the camp. Ibid
So lepers were cast out of society. That was not the case in other nations/peoples. Even in 1856 in Norway, there were still living 2,858 lepers along the North Sea coast, especially around the city of Bergen. They made a living by selling their products on the market, and traveling along the houses as peddlers, selling their stuff, and spreading their disease. When the government opened special clinics for them and isolated them, their numbers started to dwindle. When in 1891 they were forced to live in total isolation, there was great protest and riots against that decision, but their numbers went down again. In 1930, before medication was developed against leprosy, their numbers had gone down to only 2% of their original numbers. A fifty fold reduction in just 80 years, because at last, they decided to do what was written in the Torah 3300 years ago.
So yes, the laws of the Torah are life savers.
And not only against leprosy. In the dark Middle Ages the black death wiped out between one fourth and one third of the world population. In those days there was in the Jewish ghetto a doctor, Balavignus. Because of his Torah knowledge he concluded that the unhygienic circumstances in the city were the cause of the plague. In 1348 he ordered the whole Jewish neighborhood too be cleansed and garbage to be burned. He did everything what is demanded by the ritual purity laws of Leviticus. Because of that, the rats with their flees who passed on the plague bacillus, left the Jewish quarters, and moved on to the Gentile neighborhoods, because by the Jews there was nothing more to get for them. Then in the Jewish quarter the deaths from the black death were only 5% of those in Gentile neighborhoods. The Gentiles soon saw the difference, but in stead of copying the Jewish laws, they accused Balavignus of being one of the main suspects of spreading the plague in Europe.
So you might now understand why no scientist is laughing at the Bible. In fact, a German historian of medicine and professor at the University of Leipzig, Karl Sudhoff, (1853-1938) wrote about those laws: The thirteenth and fourteenth chapter of Leviticus are important documents which deserve to be written in shining gold, because they form the basis of the modern prophylaxis against contagious diseases.
.
.
.
Amen and HalleluJah!!
.
.
.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 45 by frako, posted 02-26-2014 8:31 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by frako, posted 02-27-2014 6:04 AM Eliyahu has replied
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 54 of 98 (720860)
02-28-2014 12:49 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by New Cat's Eye
02-26-2014 9:59 AM


But you could just as accurately say that a ritual that has come to save millions of lives had become a Biblical ritual.
Bs'd
The only problem is that all evidence for that assumption is lacking.
Another problem is that the Biblical laws are unique for the Bible. If you compare the Biblical laws with the contemporary pagan laws, then you see a tremendous difference.
The Biblical laws are enormous life savers. The pagan medical remedies would help you sooner into you grave.
People were doing circumcisions before the Bible was written. It wasn't invented by the Bible.
No other holy book or even medical book prescribes circumcision.
Only Egypt had it for a while, because the Israelites lived for centuries in Egypt, and forced circumcision upon the Egyptians.
And that is not the only Biblical law that turns out to be very benificial.
Sure, because things that were beneficial became Biblical law.
At least we agree on the fact that the Biblical laws are very beneficial .
And why did the Jews figure out what was very beneficial, like circumcision on the eight day, and could no other culture figure out what was so beneficial?
Divine intervention.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-26-2014 9:59 AM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by Coyote, posted 02-28-2014 12:52 AM Eliyahu has replied
 Message 67 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-28-2014 9:53 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


(1)
Message 56 of 98 (720867)
02-28-2014 2:07 AM
Reply to: Message 52 by frako
02-27-2014 6:04 AM


Leviticus says that a leper must be quarantined: But if the priest examines it and there is no white hair in the spot and if it is not more than skin deep and has faded, then the priest is to isolate them for seven days. Lev 13:26
Yea because lepers are icky icky, but sadly for you not contagious, you can catch it if you come in to REPEATED contact with nose and mouth droplets of an infected individual.
And that's what is called "contagious".
so yeah:
When they were positively identified as being lepers, they had to live outside the camp, without contact with normal society: Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt, cover the lower part of their face and cry out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’ 46 As long as they have the disease they remain unclean. They must live alone; they must live outside the camp. Ibid
Thats does not sound very nice now does it
You think it would have been nicer to let a lot of other people be infected??
So lepers were cast out of society. That was not the case in other nations/peoples. Even in 1856 in Norway, there were still living 2,858 lepers along the North Sea coast, especially around the city of Bergen. They made a living by selling their products on the market, and traveling along the houses as peddlers, selling their stuff, and spreading their disease. When the government opened special clinics for them and isolated them, their numbers started to dwindle. When in 1891 they were forced to live in total isolation, there was great protest and riots against that decision, but their numbers went down again. In 1930, before medication was developed against leprosy, their numbers had gone down to only 2% of their original numbers. A fifty fold reduction in just 80 years, because at last, they decided to do what was written in the Torah 3300 years ago.
If only your god was a bit nicer and said lepers need to cover their nose and mouth with a cloth so many people wouldn't have to be shunned.
God did one, and also the other.
The protection of healthy people is the most important.
Anyone with such a defiling disease must wear torn clothes, let their hair be unkempt, cover the lower part of their face and cry out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’ 46 As long as they have the disease they remain unclean. They must live alone; they must live outside the camp."
Lev 13:45
And not only against leprosy. In the dark Middle Ages the black death wiped out between one fourth and one third of the world population. In those days there was in the Jewish ghetto a doctor, Balavignus. Because of his Torah knowledge he concluded that the unhygienic circumstances in the city were the cause of the plague. In 1348 he ordered the whole Jewish neighborhood too be cleansed and garbage to be burned. He did everything what is demanded by the ritual purity laws of Leviticus. Because of that, the rats with their flees who passed on the plague bacillus, left the Jewish quarters, and moved on to the Gentile neighborhoods, because by the Jews there was nothing more to get for them. Then in the Jewish quarter the deaths from the black death were only 5% of those in Gentile neighborhoods. The Gentiles soon saw the difference, but in stead of copying the Jewish laws, they accused Balavignus of being one of the main suspects of spreading the plague in Europe.
Jewsi deaths where always lower for the plague then Christians, simply because Jews kept their food more secure from rats.
And because of Biblical quarantine of victims.
So you might now understand why no scientist is laughing at the Bible. In fact, a German historian of medicine and professor at the University of Leipzig, Karl Sudhoff, (1853-1938) wrote about those laws: The thirteenth and fourteenth chapter of Leviticus are important documents which deserve to be written in shining gold, because they form the basis of the modern prophylaxis against contagious diseases.
To bad leprosy isn't contagious.
Giving it over to others through saliva and nasal mucus is what is called "contagious".


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by frako, posted 02-27-2014 6:04 AM frako has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by frako, posted 02-28-2014 5:56 AM Eliyahu has replied

  
Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 57 of 98 (720868)
02-28-2014 2:09 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by Coyote
02-28-2014 12:52 AM


Maybe many other cultures, not living in desert areas, practiced better hygiene?
Bs'd
Look a little into the hygiene standards of Europe in the middle ages. Then you'll know better.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by Coyote, posted 02-28-2014 12:52 AM Coyote has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 62 of 98 (720881)
02-28-2014 6:37 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by caffeine
02-28-2014 4:42 AM


Better to live in the present
I'd disagree that washing every day is a modern cleaning practice. Don't look to the appalling hygiene standards that existed in pre-modern Europe and assume this was the standard for the ancient world. Most pre-modern cultures had stricter hygiene standards than this, including those which practiced circumcision. Egyptian culture, in particular, was very fastidious about cleanliness, and Arabic culture also has traditions of ritual washing.
Bs'd
In the desert water is a precious commodity, so that is not wasted on mundane things like washing everyday.
Even nowadays hygienic practices are in many places not what they are supposed to be:
The proponents of not circumcising nevertheless stress that lifelong penile hygiene is required. This acknowledges that something harmful or unpleasant is happening under the prepuce. Studies of middle class British [172] and Scandanavian [259] schoolboys concluded that penile hygiene, as such, is at best poor and at worst non-existent. Furthermore, Dr Terry Russell, an Australian medical practitioner and circumcision expert states "What man after a night of passion is going to perform penile hygiene before rolling over and snoring the night away (with pathogenic organisms multiplying in the warm moist environment under the prepuce)" [301]. The bacteria start multiplying again immediately after washing and contribute, along with skin secretions, to the whitish film, termed 'smegma', that is found under the foreskin.
Smegma is produced by the foreskin's inner surface and contains neutral lipids, fatty acids, sterol and exfoliated cells. Excretion of smegma increases in adolescence and peaks at age 20-40 years. Whereas initially it is a lubricant having a white or pale yellow color, with time, chemical transformations take place and it becomes mixed with epithelial cells, dirt and micro-organisms; these form aggregates and produce foul odors. The bacteria alone give off an offensive smell and most people consider smegma to be unclean [405]. Men differ in their sensitivity to this smell and some shower several times a day as a result (See section `What men say'). Some uncircumcised men, and/or their partners, find the stench so unpleasant that the foul odor has caused these men to seek a circumcision on this basis alone. Improved penile hygiene is perhaps the major reason for circumcision (82% in one study [251]) and, for most, smegma is regarded as unclean and infected with micro-organisms (88% in the same study [251]). Penile hygiene is often difficult to achieve and attempting a very high degree of hygiene in uncircumcised men can result in new dermatological problems. For mothers and fathers, it is far easier to maintain cleanliness of their son's penis if it is circumcised. If their son is not circumcised the messages are confusing: should they clean under the foreskin or leave it alone?
A survey in London of 150 uncircumcised and 75 circumcised men found 4% of circumcised compared with 26% of uncircumcised men had inferior genital hygiene behavior, i.e., did not always wash the entire penis (the uncircumcised men did not always wash under the foreskin) [249]. Balanitis, phimosis or other foreskin conditions that made foreskin retraction painful might have contributed to their inferior hygiene. The circumcised men also washed the genitals more than once per day (37% vs 19%; P = 0.01).
172. Kalcev B. Circumcision and personal hygiene in school boys. Med
Officer. 1964; 112: 171-173.
249. O'Farrell N, Quigley M, Fox P. Association between the intact foreskin and inferior standards of male genital hygiene behaviour: a cross-sectional study. Int J STD AIDS. 2005; 16: 556-559.
259. Oster J. Further fate of the foreskin: incidence of preputial
adhesions, phimosis and smegma among Danish schoolboys. Arch Dis Child.
1968; 43: 200-203.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by caffeine, posted 02-28-2014 4:42 AM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
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Eliyahu
Member (Idle past 2260 days)
Posts: 288
From: Judah
Joined: 07-23-2013


Message 63 of 98 (720882)
02-28-2014 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 60 by frako
02-28-2014 5:56 AM


Giving it over to others through saliva and nasal mucus is what is called "contagious".
Yea but wiki says " Often the word can only be understood in context, where it is used to emphasise very infectious, easily transmitted, or especially severe communicable disease"
Bs'd
Everybody can put on wiki whatever he wants, so that means nothing.
Contagious is contagious, even when it is not very contagious.
An all knowing all powerful god could have given way better instructions and no one would get sick, and no one would get shunned.
Yes He could have. But He choose to give humans free will. And if humans go against Gods laws, they'll get punished. And then they might get sick and shunned.


"The only reality is mind and observations."

Richard Conn Henry, professor Johns Hopkin department of physics

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by frako, posted 02-28-2014 5:56 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
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