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Author Topic:   No genetic bottleneck proves no global flood
Taq
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Message 5 of 140 (655325)
03-09-2012 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by Wounded King
03-09-2012 11:46 AM


Re: Origin of the example.
In fact when this topic came up on Faith's The End of Evolution By Means of Natural Selection thread she ended up, with a little help from me, proposing a hypothetical post flood population whose members were all superpolyploid acting as massive reservoirs of genetic variation and this was subsequent to her previous proposal that all of the extra required alleles would have been found in what is now 'junk' DNA.
It would still require hypermutation to produce so many pseudogenes. The overwhelming majority of pseudogenes are the product of MANY mutations, usually not just one. Also, most estimates put the number of pseudogenes between 20k and 100k compared to around 30k functional genes.
What would we expect in the introns of functional genes for the above scenario?

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 22 of 140 (663437)
05-24-2012 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Stargaze
05-24-2012 4:10 PM


I have a question. Is there more than one way to "detect" a genetic bottleneck? Or can you only figure this out by comparing one species to another, like they did with the elephant seal example?
I'm not an expert on population genetics, but I think all you would really need is:
1. The mutation rate.
2. Genetic variation within the population.
3. Stretches of genomic DNA that are not under strong selection (e.g. pseudogenes).

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Taq
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Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 75 of 140 (720776)
02-27-2014 4:39 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Faith
02-27-2014 4:26 PM


However, there is such a thing as an allele being rare in a population but favored in a subpopulation and the example of the pocket mice is an example of that.
It was rare because it was produced by a mutation, so it was found in only one individual to start with.

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 Message 76 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 4:43 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 83 of 140 (720837)
02-27-2014 7:09 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
02-27-2014 6:04 PM


Sorry, Tanypteryx. ONE mutation for black fur in a population absolutely devoid of that allele must
must show up just in time for when it's needed,
How so? The black lava fields could have been around for 1 million years before a mutation happened to produce the population we see today. The black lava fields themselves are more than a million years old. Per the topic, the sequence variation for the black fur allele is quite low which would point to a more recent emergence of the dark allele as part of a founder-flush model.
must show up in a germ cell, against astronomical odds
Let's see your calculations.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 84 of 140 (720839)
02-27-2014 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Faith
02-27-2014 5:33 PM


I guess you didn't read my well reasoned detailed argument that SHOWS that mutation could not possibly have been the source of the allele for black pocket mice.
I guess you didn't read my response showing why the argument was wrong.

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Taq
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Message 85 of 140 (720840)
02-27-2014 7:11 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by Faith
02-27-2014 4:43 PM


I already showed how the odds against that render it basically impossible.
Where are your calculations?
Added by edit:
To help you along with those calculations, here are some of the variables you need to include.
First, you need find all of the mutations that would lead to dark fur in the light fur population. According to the oft cited paper, there are 80 genes involved in fur color phenotype:
"Approximately 80 genes have been identified that affect coat color in the laboratory mouse, and more than one-quarter of these have been molecularly characterized (11)."
Just a moment...
The first thing you need to do is identify every sequence change, both in the translated protein and promoter regions, that would result in dark fur in those 80 genes. Second, you need to include the mutation rate in mice, their population numbers, and the odds of one of those mutations occuring in a mouse close to the lava fields.
Since you claim that the odds are way too high, surely you have already done these calculations, right?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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 Message 76 by Faith, posted 02-27-2014 4:43 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Faith, posted 02-28-2014 1:30 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 95 of 140 (720902)
02-28-2014 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by Faith
02-28-2014 1:15 AM


Re: Frankie Mouse to the Rescue!
Let alone one that turns out to be beneficial right when it's needed,
This isn't required, as we have shown you multiple times already.
at the very gene where it is needed,
There are 80 genes that affect coat color in mice. Those are all candidates for mutations for black fur, and there is the possibility for many mutations in each gene producing black fur.
and it isn't a "neutral" mutation and so on and so forth.
Of course it isn't a neutral mutation. It affects fitness. Why is that a problem?
It was Taq, not I, who claimed the population was devoid of this allele and that I had to be wrong that it was a normally recurring allele, because it's dominant. I figured and I still figure that it IS a normally recurring allele, but that most of the dark furred mousies that result from its occasional expression get eaten by the owl that likes them so much, because this occurs on the light colored sand among millions of his light-colored mousie brethren.
You figured? As if that somehow adds credence to your argument?
The black allele is selected against and is removed from the population when there is no black lava field. Since it is dominant, it can not escape selection in heterozygotes like recessive alleles can. Your figuring is refuted by the evidence.
Since it recurs from time to time, when the light mousies ventured onto the lava, its occasional appearance was selected, the light mousies all expired due to the owl's taste for them and the black mousies proliferated.
It recurs because of mutations, not because it was there from the very start.
Taq however told me this couldn't be the case, that the black fur allele couldn't be a recurring allele because it's dominant; therefore it was a one-time mutation; to which I replied that the odds are simply astronomically against such an event.
That is an empty assertion since you have not produced the calculations.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 96 of 140 (720903)
02-28-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 90 by Faith
02-28-2014 1:30 AM


AND mutations are STILL accidents, most of them ARE neutral or deleterious,
Some are beneficial. You keep ignoring that.
and didn't you say the light colored population is absolutely devoid of the dark allele,
They were unable to find a single dark mouse in the areas that were 100's of kilometers from the black lava fields despite free interbreeding between the dark and light mice at the lava fields. The dark allele is incapable of spreading into the light colored desert despite interbreeding.
so that if the dark allele is dominant in all 80 genes you still have to wait around for it to occur at the right time in the right place kind of out of the blue as it were.
There is no guarantee that it will be dominant for every single mutation, but it is dominant in the two populations that they looked at.
Granted there are many more opportunities than were first presented, but this new information simply makes it a lot more likely that we're talking about normally occurring dominant "D" alleles scattered through the population and not mutations.
False. The D allele would be removed from the population by selection in the absence of a dark lava field. We have shown you this multiple times now.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 126 of 140 (721233)
03-05-2014 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
03-04-2014 11:09 PM


Re: Neutral, deleterious or beneficial
No, Nosy, that is not how the terms are used. A neutral mutation is one that doesn't change what the allele would have done anyway. It's not related to the level of selection.
Here are the terms that geneticists use.
A silent mutation is a mutation that does not significantly alter the phenotype.
Synonymous mutations are mutations in coding regions that do not alter the amino acid sequence of the protein.
Non-synonymous mutations are mutations that change the amino acid sequence.
Neutral mutations are mutations that do not change the fitness of the organism.
Deleterious mutations lower fitness.
Beneficial mutations increase fitness.
Silent mutations are going to be neutral since not changing the phenotype will not change fitness.
Mutations that do alter phenotype can be neutral, deleterious, or beneficial, depending on how they change fitness in a defined environment. Non-synonymous mutations can be silent or not silent. Non-synonymous mutations that are not silent can be neutral, deleterious, or beneficial.
To simplify this a bit, there are three stages of questions. First, does a mutation occur in a position that could change phenotype, that is does it occur in functional DNA and change gene expression or function. Second, does it change phenotype. Third, does it change fitness.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
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Posts: 10021
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


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Message 127 of 140 (721237)
03-05-2014 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 116 by Faith
03-05-2014 8:42 AM


Re: Neutral, deleterious or beneficial
I've understood that this sort of change that does not change the protein is the MOST COMMON kind of mutation too.
Being the most common is not the same as being the only type of mutation.

This message is a reply to:
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