|
Register | Sign In |
|
QuickSearch
Thread ▼ Details |
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
|
Thread Info
|
|
|
Author | Topic: Death in Relation to the Creation and Fall | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
GDR Member Posts: 6202 From: Sidney, BC, Canada Joined: Member Rating: 2.1 |
DevilsAdocate writes: Not exactly the way I would have worded it. The Fall brought on a separation of our souls from God and eventually death to our physical bodies and that through salvation our immortal souls are saved, and after physical death our immortal souls in our new glorified bodies will live eternally in heaven. I'd suggest that the Biblical message is that ultimately our glorified or resurrected bodies will live eternally in God's re-created world when all things on heaven and earth come together. For example Ephesians 1:10, Revelation 21:1-2, Isaiah 66 22-23 or as Jesus taught us to pray - Thy kingdom come on Earth as in Heaven. The Bible teaches in essence that all creation will be resurrected and renewed, and so it isn't a ultimately a matter of heading off somewhere to Heaven but that ultimately Heaven comes to us renewing this world.He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God. Micah 6:8
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
said they are treated differently than animals and human beings. And yes they were on the ark as FOOD. Another nitpicking timewasting irivial piece of information. Plants do not breathe air as animals Those trivial points were directly responsive to your attempts to say exactly rhe opposite thing in support of your position. So they are exactly as trivial as your own arguments are silly. I'm going to point out that while plants do not have lungs, they do utilize air and oxygen for reasons quite similar to humans. Fish don't breathe like humans either.
Scripture says "the life is in the blood." It doesn't matter what YOU think, that's what scripture says. So again you are trying to suggest that plants are not really alive. It has already been pointed out to you that your quotation is not on point, so I won't bother re-arguing that issue. I will question why you duck and do not respond when I cite scripture suggesting that plants are alive.
James 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
DevilsAdvocate Member (Idle past 3129 days) Posts: 1548 Joined: |
I'd suggest that the Biblical message is that ultimately our glorified or resurrected bodies will live eternally in God's re-created world when all things on heaven and earth come together. For example Ephesians 1:10, Revelation 21:1-2, Isaiah 66 22-23 or as Jesus taught us to pray - Thy kingdom come on Earth as in Heaven. The Bible teaches in essence that all creation will be resurrected and renewed, and so it isn't a ultimately a matter of heading off somewhere to Heaven but that ultimately Heaven comes to us renewing this world. Correct. I was imprecise. It is a new heaven & new earth as stated in Revelations."It is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World "In coming to understand anything we are rejecting the facts as they are for us in favour of the facts as they are. - C.S. Lewis, An Experiment in Criticism
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Well of course nobody died before Adam because there was nobody before Adam. That says nothing about "why" death entered. Of course what is meant by that passage is that death entered BY ADAM's SIN. Death entered BY SIN, which was committed by Adam.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I gave you what the commentators say, I don't know otherwise. If you have a theory why don't you give it?
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
I've given you reasoning based on scripture, you are answering with reasoning based on your own notion of science.
If you mean plants don't have lungs to breath air. No, neither do fish, some amphibians, insects, earthworms, etc. They do breath air in the fact that they absorb oxygen from the air. The scriptural phrase is "whose breath is in their nostrilsx. Again, what I said is simple truth according to scripture: plants do not breathe air as plants and animals do, and let's for the moment define those according to the commandment to preserve them on the ark. Fish, amphibians, insets and earthworms were not among that company. Stop trying to make the Bible bow to science. That is the great error of "liberal Christianity." You can't do it without perverting the meaning of the scripture anyway.
So how about fish, some amphibians, insects, earthworms, etc? Do they live according to the Bible or not? Not all animals have blood circulatory systems i.e. sponges, jellyfish, worms, etc. What does the Bible say about them? It says that life is in the blood, so I would conclude that for whatever reason God does not put them on the same level as the animals preserved on the ark. IT COUDL ALSO BE THAT THEY DID NOT DIE UNTIL THE FALL EITHER. Who knows.
The problem here is you are trying to read the Bible as a science textbook. No, the problem here is that YOU are imposing some anemic idea of science of your own on the scripture. Scripture defines its meanings as I have tried to lay them out. It has nothing to do with science, but it also DOES NOT CONTRADICT science. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined:
|
Your myth of a "fall" and the consequent "original sin" is one of the most evil ideas ever to ooze from the minds of your fevered shamans.
I do not choose to believe that I am inherently evil, and neither should you. If you apply some logic and forget unreasoned belief for just a second, you might actually learn something. (Unfortunately, belief gets in the way of learning.) Here we have this thought expressed in far better words than I could come up with. —Ayn Rand Lexicon Your code begins by damning man as evil, then demands that he practice a good which it defines as impossible for him to practice. It demands, as his first proof of virtue, that he accept his own depravity without proof. It demands that he start, not with a standard of value, but with a standard of evil, which is himself, by means of which he is then to define the good: the good is that which he is not. Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Both sin and death "entered into the world" by Adam. Sounds like death coming to earth for the first time to me. And that's how it is always treated by orthodox theologians.
Death to man came by the sin of Adam & Eve, not to all of creation.
So VERY sorry but that is not how that passage reads, nor iis it how the greatest and truest theological minds have read it. I suppose it's what your liberal theologians say, who are all, like you, simply trying to justify the false science of evolution by the Bible, which means of course by twisting its meanings.
Death occurred in plants, microbes, insects, and other animals before Adam sinned did they not? I don't know. But if it did it would be because scripture doesn't treat them as living in the sense of Adam or the other animals, as it doesn't treat plants as living in the same sense.
Adam ate plants, thus killing them. Oh stuff and nonsense. All word games.
On these plants, the ground, other animals, lived microbes, insects, and small animals that themselves would die by natural means and through contact with Adam. Adam carried gut bacteria and other organisms in and on his body that went through a life and death cycle, did they not. See where this is going? See above.
Where do you draw the line what organisms lived forever and which ones died before Adam sinned I try not to draw that line. Scripture, however, seems to confine the meaning of life and death to humanity and the higher animals, whose "life is in their blood" and whose "breath is in their nostrils" and which God commanded Noah to preserve on the ark. As I've already said. This seems to be how SCRIPTURE defines life as it is relevant to its purposes. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
xongsmith Member Posts: 2587 From: massachusetts US Joined: Member Rating: 6.4 |
Faith writes:
I've given you reasoning based on scripture, you are answering with reasoning based on your own notion of science. I think when we realize where Faith is coming from, we can rule out anything she has to say - right here. "Your own notion of science" is a cowardly term to avoid admitting that the overwhelming preponderance of evidence from zillions of others, not just DevilsAdvocate here, discredits her fragile and very frightened worldview. She is such a terrified person. I can only hope that she will see the error of her way in a manner that will allow her to be cool. Edited by xongsmith, : forgot DA- xongsmith, 5.7d
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Coyote Member (Idle past 2134 days) Posts: 6117 Joined: |
She is such a terrified person. I can only hope that she will see the error of her way in a manner that will allow her to be cool. Not terrified--just so firmly embedded in her myth cycle that she does not, and cannot, see the world around her, and wouldn't believe it if she could. A classic example of the "None is so blind..." line.Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge. Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1 "Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Good grief. DA answered the scripture-based definition of life as breath in the nostrils and blood in the veins with creatures that have no breath in the nostrils and blood in the veins, managing to be wrong by the standard of either science or scripture and you think my using scripture as the standard makes me "terrified" of all the weird and twisted ideas I'm answering? This is a thread about scripture, of course what scripture says is the point and his "scientific" definition of life does not apply to the subject. However, he's wrong from both a scientific and a scriptural point of view.
AND YOU ARE OUT OF LINE TO COMMENT PERSONALLY ON ME. STICK TO THE TOPIC. AGAIN, THIS IS A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE MEANING OF SCRIPTURE. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Drosophilla Member (Idle past 3669 days) Posts: 172 From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK Joined:
|
The scriptural phrase is "whose breath is in their nostrilsx. Again, what I said is simple truth according to scripture: plants do not breathe air as plants and animals do Yet another example of how ignorant this bronze-age text is. Plants use the respiration process (glycolysis and the Krebs cycle) exactly as animals do — in fact they 'invented' it first. Plants use photosynthesis - using carbon dioxide and water (simplified explanation) and the energy from sunlight to build up complex carbohydrates that form the plant structure. At night when there is no sun they use the reverse process (respiration) to break some of their organic compounds back to carbon dioxide, water and energy (which is used to run the myriad of chemical reactions to support life) - in just the same way your body (and that of all animals) does also and for the same reason. The only difference with plants is that they can do the process in a bi-directional way - animals can only do respiration. And your ignorant text has to invoke 'nostrils' as a pre-requisite of defining what is alive? What a joke! And blood? How does the Bronze Age text interpret that? A red fluid by any chance? Are you aware of the myriad of animals that neither breathes air through nostrils nor have 'red blood'? What about the liquids contained in the phylum vessels of plants? Such liquids perform the same function as your 'red blood'. What a joke! You can see the ignorance of nature coming through in the first page of Genesis - God brought forth light and dark BEFORE he brought the sun into being - clearly showing the desert tribe who wrote the bible had no idea that our sun IS the source of our light. Forgivable I suppose when you are a bronze-age nomadic shepherd - embarrassingly cringe-worthy if you are a 'supposedly' educated Westernised 21st century inhabitant however.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
NoNukes Inactive Member |
Drosophilla writes: And your ignorant text has to invoke 'nostrils' as a pre-requisite of defining what is alive? What a joke! And blood? How does the Bronze Age text interpret that? A red fluid by any chance? No the text does not define being alive in such a way. Faith does that. During this discussion we've seen Faith latch onto different parts of the text to make poor arguments that we should ignore the fact that plants are alive and were dying before the fall. The text does not actually say what Faith says it does. Perhaps she could pick some better arguments if she knew the Bible and science better. Alas, she does not. For example, she has advanced the idea that because Noah was not commanded to save plants, they were not alive. That argument is silly on its face, because lots of animals including at least those without nostrils were not on the ark. Using her logic, then locusts were not alive either because they don't have nostrils like 'real animals'. Fish can have nostrils, but they don't use them to breathe through, so are they must not be alive either. On the other hand, whales have nostrils but they were not on the Ark. I don't know what we can do about that and still leave Faith's argument intact. What the scripture actually says at most, is that death came to Man because of sin. How literally the speaker quoted in Romans meant his remarks to be taken is unclear. But absolutely nothing is said about animals or plants. For Faith's interpretation to be correct, the Bible writers would simply have to be wrong about death. Death would have to be something other than what happens to fish, plants, and insects, but just like what does happen to humans and puppies. And of course that is simply wrong. I doubt that those bronze age guys believed anything of the sort. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Faith  Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: |
Romans 8:19-22 For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. Not only we but the whole creation, all creatures, wait for the redemption of the BODY. For they too were subjected to death and corruption because of the Fall of humanity by sin. There is probably to be some kind of redemption or transformation of ALL the creatures including the plants and worms. What the Fall did to them is not clear, nor what redemption might mean to them, but they did not die before the Fall in any sense that people here are trying to claim, because there was no death before the Fall. Plants very probably did not wither in the ground and die then. I've conjectured, based on various phrases in scripture, that what is being called death of plants and insects etc is not considered in scripture to be death because they are not considered to be alive in the same sense that humanity and the higher animals are, whose "life is in the blood." It is simply a conceit of modern man to call it life and death and impose it on the scripture. But those who have life according to the scripture also died by the Fall according to the scripture. Matthew Henry Commentary: When man sinned, the ground was cursed for man's sake, and with it all the creatures (especially of this lower world, where our acquaintance lies) became subject to that curse, became mutable and mortal. Under the bondage of corruption, v. 21. There is an impurity, deformity, and infirmity, which the creature has contracted by the fall of man: the creation is sullied and stained, much of the beauty of the world gone. There is an enmity of one creature to another; they are all subject to continual alteration and decay of the individuals, liable to the strokes of God's judgments upon man. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
|
|||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 440 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Faith writes:
Of course. It couldn't have entered by anybody else because there was nobody else. That says nothing about why death originated.
Of course what is meant by that passage is that death entered BY ADAM's SIN. Death entered BY SIN, which was committed by Adam.
|
|
|
Do Nothing Button
Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved
Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024