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Author Topic:   Are any of these prophecies fulfilled by Jesus?
lokiare
Member (Idle past 1029 days)
Posts: 69
Joined: 03-18-2014


Message 243 of 251 (722891)
03-25-2014 5:11 PM
Reply to: Message 237 by NoNukes
03-25-2014 2:57 PM


[qs]
Not only that if you look back to verse 8 it gives a total length of time of 65 years for Ephraim to be destroyed ("not a people"). Surely by then the child would not be considered a child and wouldn't be referenced as such.

Therefore it could easily be a prophecy about Jesus.

Yikes, bro. You are swimming upstream, but unlike a salmon, there is no payoff for your doing so.

First, that the prophecy is at least about the Ahaz and son is not really questioned by anyone. That ought to at least make you question your reasoning. Christians typically insist on a dual prophecy.

Others have explained why your reading is wrong based on the text. I'm just suggesting that your mistake was completely avoidable.

Second of all, your reasoning amounts to 'Not about Ahaz's boy, therefore easily Jesus? Really? Would the form of that argument convince you if someone else used it about some other topic. For someone who prides himself on the ability to drop the names of fallacies, I find your reasoning here quite amusing.[qs]

Actually I addressed that point. It can't be Ahaz's boy either because it would be 65 years before one of the kings fell, making Ahaz's boy an old man when it happened.

It could as easily be a prophecy about Jesus as any other. Not more easy, just as easy. I find your inability to read what I write equally amusing. The fact you seem to read deeply into my writing things that aren't there should worry you.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 237 by NoNukes, posted 03-25-2014 2:57 PM NoNukes has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 246 by New Cat's Eye, posted 03-25-2014 5:25 PM lokiare has not yet responded
 Message 248 by NoNukes, posted 03-26-2014 2:34 AM lokiare has not yet responded
 Message 249 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2014 1:50 AM lokiare has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12557
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.4


Message 244 of 251 (722893)
03-25-2014 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 241 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:00 PM


quote:

Actually no. Its just as likely that the prophecy was about something else that happens much later. You'll note that the prophecy says 'your enemies' instead of naming the two countries.

The context makes it rather clear which enemies are meant. And then there's the rest of the prophecy to consider. Why does everyone seem to ignore everything after verse 16 ?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 241 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:00 PM lokiare has not yet responded

    
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11232
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 245 of 251 (722895)
03-25-2014 5:18 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by lokiare
03-25-2014 4:52 PM


The only way you can read it and have it make any sense is that it is talking about some future person being born to a woman who hasn't had a child and the child will grow up after the kings have been destroyed.

It certainly doesn't make sense to interpret it as saying that the kings will be destroyed before the child is even born.

It says the child is born, eats good stuff, and before he grows up the kings will be destroyed.

It only makes sense that the child is born before the kings are destroyed.

And its not an uncommon thing. Take a look at the next chapter:

quote:
Isa 8

1 The Lord said to me, Take a large scroll and write on it with an ordinary pen: Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.
2 So I called in Uriah the priest and Zechariah son of Jeberekiah as reliable witnesses for me.
3 Then I made love to the prophetess, and she conceived and gave birth to a son. And the Lord said to me, Name him Maher-Shalal-Hash-Baz.
4 For before the boy knows how to say My father or My mother, the wealth of Damascus and the plunder of Samaria will be carried off by the king of Assyria.


Same deal. A kid will be born, but before he grows up X will happen. It doesn't make sense for that to be saying that it will happen before the kid is even born.

Edited by Catholic Scientist, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 4:52 PM lokiare has not yet responded

  
New Cat's Eye
Member
Posts: 11232
From: near St. Louis
Joined: 01-27-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 246 of 251 (722900)
03-25-2014 5:25 PM
Reply to: Message 243 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:11 PM


It can't be Ahaz's boy either because it would be 65 years before one of the kings fell, making Ahaz's boy an old man when it happened.

Well, it could be. You're biasly assuming that the prophecy actually came true. Maybe Isaiah was just wrong and it took longer than was thought.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:11 PM lokiare has not yet responded

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 5750
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 2.9


Message 247 of 251 (722914)
03-25-2014 5:46 PM
Reply to: Message 242 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:05 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
So you expect us to read your sources, but ignore sources others present. YOu did not address my post you just poo pooed it. Classic and typical. You don't want to debate you want to preach.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 242 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:05 PM lokiare has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9429
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 248 of 251 (723043)
03-26-2014 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:11 PM


Actually I addressed that point. It can't be Ahaz's boy either because it would be 65 years before one of the kings fell, making Ahaz's boy an old man when it happened.

Except that your dates are a bunch of hooey. Something like a decade passed between the prophecy, the dual attack and the killing of the kings.

ABE:

I have to question the tactic of proving that Jesus is the Messiah, by arguing that the Bible is actually wrong, and that it did not properly predict what happened to Ahaz. What kind of literal-inerrant Bible worshipper are you?

extra ABE:

I think you may be right about one of the kings not dying right away. But that just causes more problems for Bible literalists.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:11 PM lokiare has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9429
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 249 of 251 (723126)
03-27-2014 1:50 AM
Reply to: Message 243 by lokiare
03-25-2014 5:11 PM


t could as easily be a prophecy about Jesus as any other. Not more easy, just as easy. I find your inability to read what I write equally amusing.

You did not say "Just as easy". Here is what you actually said:

ISurely by then the child would not be considered a child and wouldn't be referenced as such.

Therefore it could easily be a prophecy about Jesus.

My reading is just fine.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 243 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 5:11 PM lokiare has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1549
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 2.1


(1)
Message 250 of 251 (723128)
03-27-2014 3:11 AM
Reply to: Message 236 by lokiare
03-25-2014 2:53 PM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
lokaire writes:

Using that same logic using fossils to date geological layers and using geological layers to date fossils is circular reasoning.

First riduculously stupid creationist blunder. That's the opposite of what geologists do.

As someone else once wrote on this forum (I can't remember who it was).

And every time I read it, I wonder if you guys ever think about what you're saying. Can you really imagine a geologist standing up at a geological conference and saying: "I know this rock is ten million years old because the fossils in it are ten million years old. And I know that the fossils in it are ten million years old because I know that the rock is ten million years old" --- and no-one makes an objection?

Clearly the creationist fantasy of what geologists do cannot be an actual description of what they do; and it isn't.

You created a straw man argument. You think that we all are ignorant or uinformed about geology. News to you, we have a few geologists on this forum.

You insulting those tens of thousands of practicing geologists from all over the world is not doing you any favours.

Will ignore the rest of your post.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 236 by lokiare, posted 03-25-2014 2:53 PM lokiare has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 251 by NoNukes, posted 03-27-2014 8:24 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9429
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.8


Message 251 of 251 (723149)
03-27-2014 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 250 by Pressie
03-27-2014 3:11 AM


Re: putting a date on prophecies
You created a straw man argument. You think that we all are ignorant or uinformed about geology. News to you, we have a few geologists on this forum.

Lokiare was not making a straw man argument. He was accusing us of having done so. His point was that you could use the Bible text to verify the text after using outside sources to confirm portions of the text. Just as you can use reference fossils to date layers

But the analogy does not work. The rock aging method does work. But no matter how much time you spend counting Civil War cannon, you will never be able to verify that Rhett Butler told Scarlett, "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn" using that kind of evidence. Gone with the Wind is still fiction. Just as the Illiad is still fiction regardless of whether Troy existed.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 250 by Pressie, posted 03-27-2014 3:11 AM Pressie has not yet responded

    
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