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Author Topic:   Big Bang Found
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 196 of 301 (723507)
04-03-2014 8:04 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by kbertsche
04-03-2014 1:01 AM


Re: Double talk..
I think some folks like to raise the example of radioactive decay because quantum mechanical systems seem complicated and sophisticated, and it is easier to use double-talk to fool people into thinking that quantum mechanical events have no "cause".
You are certainly full of yourself this morning. I used radioactive decay because it was easy to understand. And rather than make up junk to fool you, I actually cited physicists, in this case Bohr and Heisenberg who say that there is no cause.
In contrast, you say that the reason the atoms decay is because they were created.
So which argument is double talk?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 1:01 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 11:50 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 301 (723508)
04-03-2014 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by kbertsche
04-03-2014 1:01 AM


Oblivious, just oblivious
Take C-14, for example. Cosmic rays strike atoms and create spallation products in the upper atmosphere. Some of these spallation products are free neutrons. Some of these neutrons strike N-14, which has a large cross-section for an (n,p) reaction. This converts the N-14 to C-14.
Sigh.
What you have described is not a decay process. It is instead a neutron induced reaction. Fluorescence is induced by radiation.
Now that C-14 then decays away over time. Half of the created C-14 will be gone in 5730 years through a process that does not involve neutrons striking N-14. What causes that decay?
What causes two identical C-14 atoms to decay millions of years apart?
Your answer is that the difference is intrinsic in a way that is not embodied in the state of the atoms. Don't you see anything fundamentally different between decay and the two induced processes you discuss here?
ABE:
To be clear, because you are determined to miss this and call others fools. In two cases you cite the particles and an inducing agent and the structure of the nuclei. In the final case you talk only about the structure of the nuclei and nothing else for results that are strikingly different every time an atom decays. Yet you see no difference. Nothing to explain.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 1:01 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 11:05 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 198 of 301 (723514)
04-03-2014 10:26 AM
Reply to: Message 192 by AZPaul3
04-02-2014 10:30 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
AZPaul3 writes:
If none of the operating parameters we know to exist in our universe actually operate in that period then what does?
Hi AZPaul3, We do not know yet. I agree with that one.
Hell we do not even know yet what the majority of the universe is composed of. I agree it isn't Straggler's ethereal trumpting elephants though.
AZPaul3 writes:
Speculating this is some kind of supernatural god thingie is preposterous since such concepts we know to be wholly (holy?) human constructs.
Yes. But what if we do not know what this god thingy is yet?
Just like we did not know what Electromagnatism and gravity was. I agree it most likely is not some Monty Python cartoon head and hands in the clouds. More likely human nature in general making shit up. But somehow energy/matter became sentient.
It wasn't and now it is. Is it a science experiment from some super intelligent alien race? That we have been mistakenly calling God? Is it even knowable? I am open to all possibilities.
Edited by 1.61803, : add image of god

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by AZPaul3, posted 04-02-2014 10:30 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by onifre, posted 04-03-2014 11:11 AM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 201 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-03-2014 12:06 PM 1.61803 has replied
 Message 202 by AZPaul3, posted 04-03-2014 12:15 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 199 of 301 (723519)
04-03-2014 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 198 by 1.61803
04-03-2014 10:26 AM


Re: Go North Young Man!
But somehow energy/matter became sentient.
It wasn't and now it is.
Not somehow - we have a very clear detailed history of how human life emerged. Like every other living organism we had a slow gradual process of evolution.
Is it a science experiment from some super intelligent alien race? That we have been mistakenly calling God? Is it even knowable?
We could be the experiment of another race of sentient beings. But those beings would also have evolved througha gradual slow process and not just popped up out of nowhere and existed forever without any kind of emergence process.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 10:26 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 203 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 12:53 PM onifre has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 200 of 301 (723520)
04-03-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 194 by kbertsche
04-03-2014 1:01 AM


Re: Double talk..
Well, it's one thing to say that the cause of the fluorescence is the UV light. It's much more tendentious to point to a particular electron and say "The cause of the fall to its ground state was being hit by a high-energy photon".
Suppose someone says: "John's death was caused by his interest in botany". How do you make that out? we ask. "Well, he'd never have been at the top of that cliff if he hadn't wanted to see the rare Clifftop Saxifrage". Well, this may indeed have been a necessary and sufficient condition to get him to the top of the cliff, but surely the cause of his death was whatever got him to the bottom.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 194 by kbertsche, posted 04-03-2014 1:01 AM kbertsche has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by kbertsche, posted 04-04-2014 8:30 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(4)
Message 201 of 301 (723523)
04-03-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by 1.61803
04-03-2014 10:26 AM


Re: Go North Young Man!
Yes. But what if we do not know what this god thingy is yet?
What if we don't know what unicorns are yet? How dumb we'd look saying there are no unicorns if it turns out that in fact they're black and white flightless birds that look like this:
Silly of us, there are lots of unicorns, they live in Antarctica and eat fish.
But of course we can't be wrong about what a word means, we have to be right about that, we made the words, we defined them, it can't turn out that "unicorn" really means penguin rather than "horse with a horn". In the same way, I can't find out that "this god thingy" really is my left leg, and exclaim: "How dumb of me to be an atheist, there was a god all along, it was attached to my groin". The word "god" may not be as well-defined as "unicorn", but it is sufficiently well-defined that I can't be wrong about the existence of God in that particular way.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 10:26 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 205 by NoNukes, posted 04-03-2014 2:14 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 207 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 3:48 PM Dr Adequate has not replied
 Message 225 by frako, posted 04-04-2014 8:20 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(1)
Message 202 of 301 (723524)
04-03-2014 12:15 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by 1.61803
04-03-2014 10:26 AM


Re: Go North Young Man!
Is it a science experiment from some super intelligent alien race?
We have seen natural processes change matter to energy and back. We have seen matter compressed to (almost) a singularity. Cosmic inflation and the CMB give tantalizing hints to the maybe existence of a multiverse. We have seen the warping and deep wells of a flexible space-time. Speculations of a singularity piercing space-time, some universe producing multiverse or some random quantum fluctuation as our origin are not that far out in left field but are open minded extensions of the reality we know. We can reasonably entertain such speculations without being senseless and foolish.
Gods, lotus ponds, turtles, brains in jars and alien experiments as our origin are without any justifiable reason to be considered. They have been pulled out of someone's ... creative mind hole ... without any intellectual underpinnings. Someone's mind was sooo open their brains fell out, and in trying to stuff them back in they got the wrong end of their body.
I am open to all possibilities.
Don't do that.
BTW, your picture of god is the ancient archaic one. This is the newer modern one.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 10:26 AM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 209 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 4:07 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 203 of 301 (723528)
04-03-2014 12:53 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by onifre
04-03-2014 11:11 AM


Re: Go North Young Man!
Hi Oni,
Not somehow - we have a very clear detailed history of how human life emerged. Like every other living organism we had a slow gradual process of evolution.
Evolution and natural selection occured and is occuring but has nothing to say about abiogenesis.
I don't dispute this. However it is still unknown how the big bang occurred. It is unknown if or how inflation occured, It is unknown how exactly how and by what mechanisms, abiogenisus occured.
Those are the processes that gave rise to the cosmos and abiogenesis life on Earth and eventually humanity. We know it happened, just not as yet how. Or do you have information I am unaware of? If I am incorrect I will be more than happy to retract my ingnorant statements.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 199 by onifre, posted 04-03-2014 11:11 AM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 204 by NoNukes, posted 04-03-2014 2:06 PM 1.61803 has not replied
 Message 206 by onifre, posted 04-03-2014 2:44 PM 1.61803 has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 204 of 301 (723537)
04-03-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by 1.61803
04-03-2014 12:53 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
"It is unknown if or how inflation occurred"
The "if" is something we think we know. That's what prompted this thread.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 12:53 PM 1.61803 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 205 of 301 (723539)
04-03-2014 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Dr Adequate
04-03-2014 12:06 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
What if God is that voice in your head that is really good at mathematics?
it is possible that Adam and Eve knew that and Moses simply got it wrong.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-03-2014 12:06 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 206 of 301 (723550)
04-03-2014 2:44 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by 1.61803
04-03-2014 12:53 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
Evolution and natural selection occured and is occuring but has nothing to say about abiogenesis.
Abiogenesis and the emergence of sentience are separated by over 4 billion years. Your point was that of sentience NOT how single cell organisms emerged.
That was the point I was addressing.
However it is still unknown how the big bang occurred. It is unknown if or how inflation occured, It is unknown how exactly how and by what mechanisms, abiogenisus occured.
You're brushing over it with a very broad brush. For each of those things there are some things we know - like inflation (hence this thread) and possible hypothesis for how universes can emerge. For abiogenesis there is a ton of evidence, but sure, there isn't a complete theory.
The point is scientist are not blindly waving a stick hoping to hit something or imagining a super being that can create these things.
Or do you have information I am unaware of?
Apparently you are unaware of all the work being done in these fields you've mentioned.
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 12:53 PM 1.61803 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 4:00 PM onifre has replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 207 of 301 (723557)
04-03-2014 3:48 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by Dr Adequate
04-03-2014 12:06 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
You make a excellent point.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by Dr Adequate, posted 04-03-2014 12:06 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 208 of 301 (723564)
04-03-2014 4:00 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by onifre
04-03-2014 2:44 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
Oni writes:
Abiogenesis and the emergence of sentience are separated by over 4 billion years. Your point was that of sentience NOT how single cell organisms emerged.
Well in the scheme of the universe whats 4 billion years?
And my point was it is still unknown how energy/mass has become sentient.
I just skipped over all the bullshit and got to the point.
Oni writes:
You're brushing over it with a very broad brush. For each of those things there are some things know -
Sure like we knew what phylogiston was or how light propagates through aether?
Oni writes:
Apparently you are unaware of all the work being done in these fields you've mentioned.
Are you kidding, I'm watching COSMOS man!!

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by onifre, posted 04-03-2014 2:44 PM onifre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by onifre, posted 04-03-2014 4:12 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
1.61803
Member (Idle past 1504 days)
Posts: 2928
From: Lone Star State USA
Joined: 02-19-2004


Message 209 of 301 (723568)
04-03-2014 4:07 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by AZPaul3
04-03-2014 12:15 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
AZPaul3 writes:
...creative mind hole...
lmfao!!!
That will be the name of my next band!! If you dont mind?
AZPaul3 writes:
Don't do that.
Ok.
Edited by 1.61803, : fixed quote.

"You were not there for the beginning. You will not be there for the end. Your knowledge of what is going on can only be superficial and relative" William S. Burroughs

This message is a reply to:
 Message 202 by AZPaul3, posted 04-03-2014 12:15 PM AZPaul3 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by AZPaul3, posted 04-03-2014 7:56 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


(1)
Message 210 of 301 (723570)
04-03-2014 4:12 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by 1.61803
04-03-2014 4:00 PM


Re: Go North Young Man!
And my point was it is still unknown how energy/mass has become sentient.
Yes, you already stated that and you are wrong. We do know how mass/energy (since everything is made up of that even our common ancestor) became sentient - it was through evolution.
What we don't have a clear understanding of is what was the exact chemistry that organized inorganic material into what we call organic life.
Sure like we knew what phylogiston was or how light propagates through aether?
Yes
Are you kidding, I'm watching COSMOS man!!
So are my kids.
- Oni

This message is a reply to:
 Message 208 by 1.61803, posted 04-03-2014 4:00 PM 1.61803 has seen this message but not replied

  
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