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Author Topic:   33% of Americas Reject Evolution
RAZD
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Posts: 18656
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
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Message 16 of 24 (722673)
03-24-2014 8:34 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Gus
03-23-2014 5:26 PM


Hi Gus and welcome to the fray,

Have a look at The Creation Answers book, and Creation Magazine. Figures? These add up.

No I can't say that I have, nor can I see what exactly you are talking about. Perhaps you could take what you feel is the most convincing point and present it. Hopefully you would be able to defend this point rather than just parrot it.

Note for this discussion the process of evolution is an observed demonstrated fact.

The process of evolution involves changes in the composition of hereditary traits, and changes to the frequency of their distributions within breeding populations from generation to generation, in response to ecological challenges and opportunities.

This occurs in virtually every generation of every species living in the world today, and to reject\disbelieve this fact is imho irrational, as if you can reject\disbelieve gravity.


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we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Gus, posted 03-23-2014 5:26 PM Gus has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18656
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 17 of 24 (722680)
03-24-2014 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Gus
03-23-2014 5:16 PM


same old misconceptions
To add to what others have said:

... Evolution was not possible(an understatement) ...

Seeing as the process of evolution has been observed occurring constantly around us, this is a rather ignorant (undereducated) and incorrect (falsified) statement.

It appears that you are one of the undereducated\delusional33%.*

... Creation is what happened. ...

Do you have any actual evidence of this or is it just an empty assertion?

... Nature programs, for example, should not speak in terms of us having evolved. It's by far not proven, never will be. ...

Actually it has been demonstrated that we are more closely related to chimpanzees than they are to gorillas. Some scientists argue that Pan troglodytes could more properly be labeled Homo troglodytes.

... There is no missing link. ...

Curiously there are quite a number of intermediates (how scientists refer to "missing links" that have been found):

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/hominids.html

quote:

Figure 1.4.4. Fossil hominid skulls. Some of the figures have been modified for ease of comparison (only left-right mirroring or removal of a jawbone). (Images © 2000 Smithsonian Institution.)

These are just some of the intermediates in the fossil record.

"A" is a modern chimp, Pan troglodytes and "N" is a modern man, Homo sapiens sapiens, and the others are the fossil hominids from earliest to latest -- where do you draw the line where there are no intermediate fossils?

Now it is quite possible that you have not been exposed to the facts as known by science, but it is possible to correct ignorance by learning.

The question is whether you want to learn what science has to say, or do you want to hide your ignorance behind faith in delusional teachings.

The earth is old, very very old. Would you like to discuss the evidence that shows that the earth is old? See Message 63.

Are you on a search for truth or just preachin.



Notes

* where "delusional" refers to 1b or 2 until 3 is demonstrated:

de•lu•sion -noun (American Heritage Dictionary 2009)

  1. a. The act or process of deluding.
    b. The state of being deluded.
  2. A false belief or opinion: labored under the delusion that success was at hand.
  3. Psychiatry A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence, especially as a symptom of mental illness: delusions of persecution.

and where "delusional" 1b or 2, like ignorance, are curable by education\learning.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Gus, posted 03-23-2014 5:16 PM Gus has not yet responded

  
dwise1
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Posts: 2790
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 4.7


Message 18 of 24 (722697)
03-24-2014 10:27 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by Gus
03-23-2014 5:26 PM


Have a look at The Creation Answers book, ...

Do you mean this book by Hank Hanegraaff? -- http://www.amazon.com/...Hanegraaff/dp/1400319269/ref=sr_1_1
Looking inside it, which amazon.com allows us to do, I find it so typically underwhelming. A lot of it involves theological issues, so it's rather light on "scientific" arguments. Though he does manage to make the standard stupid creationist claim about protein formation.

I remember a decade or more ago that there was some huge pissing match between evangelicals involving Hank Hanegraaff, but I forget what it was about -- such "deep theological controversies" (such as our own thread on death and the Fall) make as much sense to me as fervent arguing over situations in which someone other than Thor can pick up Mjölnir.

I did notice in one of the reader's reviews that the author does not hold to the young-earth dogma but rather allows for the earth being billions of years old. So then, Gus, if you wish to differentiate yourself from the YECs we normally encounter, you will need to present some of the material, or at least try to explain your position with respect to science.


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MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 648 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 19 of 24 (723786)
04-08-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Gus
03-23-2014 5:16 PM


33% of Americans are delusional
Gus, you wrote,
If about 33% reject evolution, it's quite shocking that only 1/3 are on the right track.

Yes, it is shocking that only 33% of Americans accept the fact of evolution through natural selection, especially since it has been observed, backed up by the fossil record, human/chimp chromosomes, and ERVs in the human genome.

To those who know the Bible, not that much of a shock any more, but still disturbing.

Does the Bible have something to say about Americans and this recent poll..? Perhaps you can direct me to that part of scripture..?

Eventually we have to accept it, because Scripture will not be wrong.

Nonsense, scripture is wrong on so many things it's hard to pick just a few examples, but how about how rabbits chew the cud, and bats are birds.

You cannot change the Word of God.

The so-called word of God has done more evolving than homo sapiens have. There are over 5,000 Greek copies of the Gospels, going back as far as 300 CE, and yet no two of them are the same. There are in fact more differences in the Gospels we have from antiquity than there are words in the New Testament.

Evolution was not possible(an understatement)

Please provide your evidence that shows how evolution through natural selection is impossible, and then explain ERVs in the human and chimp genome.

Creation is what happened.

And your evidence for this creation thing you claim occurred is what, exactly..? Please keep in mind that scripture is not evidence, it is an assertion.

Nature programs, for example, should not speak in terms of us having evolved. It's by far not proven, never will be.

No, it has been proven by every available piece of evidence, and by all other sciences as a fact. But don't take my word for it, you can read all about it in every textbook in the world on biology, genetics, botany, microbiology, paleontology, anthropology, and taxonomy.

There is no missing link.

Hogwash. The so-called missing link is just one more link in the chain that shows our lineage from the first protohuman (australopithicus aforensis), to homo habilus, to homo erectus, to the present homo sapien sapien. If all the skulls from the original common ancestor to the present day modern man were lined up in a row, you and others like you would still declare there was a missing link.

Fossils don't fit into Darwin's puzzle- something he wanted, but could not have;

The fossil record supports Darwins theory perfectly. There are no bunnies in the Cambrian.

because it's not like that at all.

The fossil record follows exactly what we would expect if Darwin's theory is right, which it has been proven to be.

Anyone with an idea of the complexity of DNA will know it could not have come about by itself.

That is not a part of the Theory of Evolution through natural selection, which only explains the diversity of life on this planet. That is the story of abiogenesis, and although not a complete theory yet, it is only a matter of time and then where will your God of the gaps hide..?

That 1 example is more than enough-how many are there?

How many wrong-headed ideas do you have about evolutionary theory..? One can only guess.

The only possible explanation is that of a Supreme Being.

Or super intelligent space aliens that created us through panspermia, or magic pixies, or any one of a hundred gods with a creation myth.

The Creator, God. His Word(the Bible)/His Son, is not just there for nothing.

How do you know..? Maybe it's all a myth, created as a means of controlling the less intelligent.

It's not a bunch of people who've made things up;

Why not..?

that's also not possible. The prophesies therein have been fulfilled... even from old to new testaments.

No so-called prophecies have been fulfilled, including the one about returning before everyone in earshot has tasted of death.

Other things have yet to take place.

Other things..? Could you be a little less obscure..?

Some of us cause others to believe, through promptings from the Holy Spirit and prayer, etc.

Hardly likely, since you know so little about science or I dare say your own Bible. Prayer has been shown through testing to be less capable than chance at intervening in our lives. There is no Holy Spirit.

Others have had good and faithful parents.

So what..? You think that this is some sort of argument or evidence..?

Some have gone through horrible times and called upon the Name of the Lord, and seeked Him out.

I'm sure you mean sought him out, but no matter. So in the past uneducated and gullible people asked for divine intervention because they had been brainwashed from the time they were children that this deity would help them in times of trouble. Doesn't this fly in the face of your belief that God is omnipotent, and is responsible for everything that happens..? Didn't your God put those people in those positions to begin with..? Doesn't your God have some cosmic plan for them..? How dare they try to get your God to change his cosmic plan to suit their momentary desires.

People who don't beleive may either be clever or not. But that has nothing to do with why they don't believe.

Clever, is a word that has gotten a bad rap. However, if you change the word to educated then nothing could be further from the truth. It is exactly why some don't believe and others do.

They don't because they don't want to believe.

Nonsense. We don't choose to believe anything. We are convinced, sometimes by good evidence and sometimes by bad evidence, but we never choose to believe. Can you choose not to believe in gravity..?

Changes take place in people's lives when(and after) they get born again and baptized.

The "changes" are entirely in your imagination, and the imaginations of others.

Where do you want to go? You can gamble with a couple of quid mate, but please don't do that with your everlasting soul.

There is no such thing as the soul.

It's worth more than all the wealth in the world. Life is much more prescious than we realize.

I agree, but then that's not what your Bible says, is it..? The Bible expresses the belief that the life we have here is worthless, it's only the afterlife that matters, right..? Have you forgotten what your savior told you about not caring for anything in this life..?

Don't trade it for some insane theory.

The theory of evolution is perfectly sane. It's those that believe in a sky-daddy who poofed everything into existence ex nilho that are insane.

Even if 1 could get incredibly rich and powerful, that won't help him/her out of hel.

There is no Hell or Heaven, it's just the myths of Bronze age people who couldn't explain the natural occurences around them.

Edited by MFFJM2, : quotes


This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 04-08-2014 2:06 PM MFFJM2 has responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18656
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 20 of 24 (723787)
04-08-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by MFFJM2
04-08-2014 1:21 PM


Re: 33% of Americans are delusional
Welcome to the fray MFFJM2,

Gus, you wrote,
"If about 33% reject evolutio ...

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Yes, it is shocking that only 33% of Americans accept the fact of evolution through natural selection, especially since it has been observed, backed up by the fossil record, human/chimp chromosomes, and ERVs in the human genome.

I think you have that backwards. But what is more shocking than 1/3rd of americans rejecting evolution is that 1/4th of americans think the sun orbits the earth.

Edited by RAZD, : ...


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
Rebel American Zen Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


• • • Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click) • • •

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by MFFJM2, posted 04-08-2014 1:21 PM MFFJM2 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Diomedes, posted 04-08-2014 3:35 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply
 Message 22 by MFFJM2, posted 04-09-2014 6:39 AM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
Diomedes
Member
Posts: 628
From: Central Florida, USA
Joined: 09-13-2013
Member Rating: 6.4


Message 21 of 24 (723789)
04-08-2014 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
04-08-2014 2:06 PM


Re: 33% of Americans are delusional
But what is more shocking than 1/3rd of americans rejecting evolution is that 1/4th of americans think the sun orbits the earth.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 04-08-2014 2:06 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

  
MFFJM2
Member (Idle past 648 days)
Posts: 58
From: Washington, DC
Joined: 10-11-2009


(1)
Message 22 of 24 (723817)
04-09-2014 6:39 AM
Reply to: Message 20 by RAZD
04-08-2014 2:06 PM


Re: 33% of Americans are delusional
Thanks for the assistance. My remark that only 1/3 of Americans accept the theory of evolution was from the PEW research poll, where 1/3 accepted evolution, 1/3 believed in creationism, and 1/3 weren't sure or thought both deserved equal treatment.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 20 by RAZD, posted 04-08-2014 2:06 PM RAZD has acknowledged this reply

    
Larni
Member
Posts: 3942
From: UK
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 23 of 24 (723818)
04-09-2014 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Gus
03-23-2014 5:16 PM


Welcome to the fray!

What is your stance on Leviticus 20:13?


The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by Gus, posted 03-23-2014 5:16 PM Gus has not yet responded

    
Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 1082 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 24 of 24 (723819)
04-09-2014 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Gus
03-23-2014 5:16 PM


Oh dear...!
If about 33% reject evolution, it's quite shocking that only 1/3 are on the right track. To those who know the Bible, not that much of a shock any more, but still disturbing. Eventually we have to accept it, because Scripture will not be wrong. You cannot change the Word of God. Evolution was not possible(an understatement) Creation is what happened. Nature programs, for example, should not speak in terms of us having evolved. It's by far not proven, never will be. There is no missing link. Fossils don't fit into Darwin's puzzle- something he wanted, but could not have; because it's not like that at all. Anyone with an idea of the complexity of DNA will know it could not have come about by itself. That 1 example is more than enough-how many are there? The only possible explanation is that of a Supreme Being. The Creator, God. His Word(the Bible)/His Son, is not just there for nothing. It's not a bunch of people who've made things up; that's also not possible. The prophesies therein have been fulfilled... even from old to new testaments. Other things have yet to take place. Some of us cause others to believe, through promptings from the Holy Spirit and prayer, etc. Others have had good and faithful parents. Some have gone through horrible times and called upon the Name of the Lord, and seeked Him out.
People who don't beleive may either be clever or not. But that has nothing to do with why they don't believe. They don't because they don't want to believe. Changes take place in people's lives when(and after) they get born again and baptized. Where do you want to go? You can gamble with a couple of quid mate, but please don't do that with your everlasting soul. It's worth more than all the wealth in the world. Life is much more prescious than we realize. Don't trade it for some insane theory. Even if 1 could get incredibly rich and powerful, that won't help him/her out of hel. www.facebook.com/thefuelproject

Are you a Poe?


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