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Author Topic:   The Power/Reality Of Demons And Supernatural Evil.
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


Message 211 of 225 (723803)
04-08-2014 11:52 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Phat
04-08-2014 1:16 PM


Was it reallya personal encounter with the supernatural?
Interesting.

Not to pry (well, yes to pry if you are willing) but are you the first person narrator in this scene or did this come to you via hearsay?

In a too quick look-up, complete explosive delusional schizophrenia appears to be rare but is known to happen. A genetic pre-disposition accompanied by great stress and extreme cognitive dissonance in some unusual encounter. Unusual for the victim, that is. Is the religious nature of this setting any more significant than the extreme emotion of a courtroom or an especially difficult anatomy exam in med school? Would supernatural demons be the first thought in the case of a despondent father at the trial of his murdered 10 year-old daughter?

My disposition is, of course, non-supernatural. I could not dismiss the occurrence for a lack of evidence since such occurrences are known to happen, but demons would not be my first choice for an explanation. Not knowing any of the details it seems to me that the setting itself, and the disposition of believers toward supernatural agency, may create the specter of "demon" all too easily.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 04-08-2014 1:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 10:48 AM AZPaul3 has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 212 of 225 (723805)
04-09-2014 12:08 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Stile
04-08-2014 2:15 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Stile writes:

Why not "accept" the event as a mistake in perception, only because evidence is lacking?

Personally, I would take what I knew about the event and compare it with what I knew about reality.
If it made sense and fit in... I would think the event to be "normal."
If it doesn't make sense and fit in... I would think the event to be similar to a whole bunch of other things that don't make sense or fit in to me... things I don't know much about.

There's no reason to dismiss any event because evidence is lacking.

What we do know, though... is that it's foolish to cling to a personally preferred explanation for an event when evidence is lacking.

Even though this happened nearly twenty years ago, I remember the day as if it happened last week.

I can understand that at that time---and probably even now, I would be quick to jump to the idea that the event was demons/angels. Even if I were more critical, I couldn't explain the voices heard. I am about 95% sure that I was not tricked.

My hair on my arms stood on end, but that can be explained many ways.

There were three of us who witnessed the event and we all remember the same things.


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Stile, posted 04-08-2014 2:15 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by ramoss, posted 04-09-2014 12:44 AM Phat has responded
 Message 219 by Stile, posted 04-10-2014 10:41 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3046
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 213 of 225 (723809)
04-09-2014 12:44 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
04-09-2014 12:08 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Hum..

Someone told me a tale from their pentecostal days. They were all the 'hand waving bible fearing' types that 'drove the devil' out of the worshipers with prayer.

One woman was cured from demonic possession, with similar symptoms, almost every week.

Ever think it might be self hypnosis with socially conditioned expectations?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 04-09-2014 12:08 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 04-09-2014 1:11 AM ramoss has responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 214 of 225 (723810)
04-09-2014 1:11 AM
Reply to: Message 213 by ramoss
04-09-2014 12:44 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Ever think it might be self hypnosis with socially conditioned expectations?
It could be possible, but how to explain the other two who reported hearing the same thing?

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by ramoss, posted 04-09-2014 12:44 AM ramoss has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by ramoss, posted 04-09-2014 3:49 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3046
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 215 of 225 (723815)
04-09-2014 3:49 AM
Reply to: Message 214 by Phat
04-09-2014 1:11 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Again, social conformity, and expectations. Ever wonder why it only seems to happen in prayer sessions??? People get worked up... and it's a communal experience.

Look at how people react at faith healings.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 214 by Phat, posted 04-09-2014 1:11 AM Phat has not yet responded

  
Larni
Member
Posts: 3951
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 216 of 225 (723834)
04-09-2014 5:56 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Phat
04-08-2014 1:16 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
This is exactly the kind of thing that gets retroactively redacted in our memory.

The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer.
-Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53

The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286

Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.
-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Phat, posted 04-08-2014 1:16 PM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 2:03 AM Larni has not yet responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 217 of 225 (723853)
04-10-2014 2:03 AM
Reply to: Message 216 by Larni
04-09-2014 5:56 PM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
I suppose there is no way I could challenge that statement.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 216 by Larni, posted 04-09-2014 5:56 PM Larni has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 04-10-2014 10:14 AM Phat has responded

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 218 of 225 (723864)
04-10-2014 10:14 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Phat
04-10-2014 2:03 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
I think the most likely explanation can be found in the first couple sentences.

quote:
About five years ago, I and my friends were active in fellowship and communion with other Christian Believers. We were praying together in agreement, and we were becoming at peace with our relationships to each other, the world in general, and God as we knew Him.

TRUE BELIEVERS!


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 2:03 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 10:43 AM jar has responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3036
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 3.1


(1)
Message 219 of 225 (723865)
04-10-2014 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 212 by Phat
04-09-2014 12:08 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Even if I were more critical, I couldn't explain the voices heard.

Exactly. You can't be "more critical" because you can't test the situation.
There's nothing wrong with that, it's simply the honest truth about the situation.

There were three of us who witnessed the event and we all remember the same things.

You do know that this can make things more inaccurate, right?

Check this out:

quote:
Eye Witness Memory -> Co-witness Contamination

The presence of a co-witness can often contaminate memories. When witnesses confer about an event they can end up agreeing on an incorrect narrative. Research has found that 71% of witnesses changed their eyewitness accounts to include false components that their co-witnesses remembered.


Now... did this happen?
Of course.. we can't say. Because we can't test it.
But it does mean that saying things like "but... there were 3 of us!!!" does not add any validity to your explanation for your story.

The only thing that can add validity to your explanation is testing it and processing the results.
But... we can't test it.
Therefore... we can't add validity to your explanation for your story.

Continually trying to add validity when you can't... only serves to show that you have a pre-programmed bias. It does not show that you are interested in getting towards the accurate truth.

Phat writes:

I suppose there is no way I could challenge that statement.

This is the point you need to fully understand.
You can't challenge any of these statements. You can't challenge my statements.. you can't challenge your own statements.
You can't... because we can't test it.

Maybe one day we'll learn what happened... but most likely not.
Until then, you can choose to believe in whatever explanation you prefer.

Just try not to act like you can add validity to your belief when it is obvious that you cannot... this will only serve to lead you down the trail towards inaccuracy. Well.. I suppose you need to figure out if "accuracy" if something you care about. Obviously if you're more worried about "losing your faith" than "being accurate"... then you should focus more on your faith.

Figure out your balance. Is "having faith" important to you? Or "being accurate"?
What about "having faith in something that is accurate"? What percentage of your mind is focused on the faith part vs. the being-accurate part?

Figure that out... and you'll be able to calm your worries over these situations. You won't feel like you have to show or prove anything to anyone.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Phat, posted 04-09-2014 12:08 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 220 of 225 (723866)
04-10-2014 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by jar
04-10-2014 10:14 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
I suppose had we been skeptical questioners we never would have had such an experience then?

Im not trying to paint a picture of friends who never went through things, though back then we had limited experience compared to now. It was myself, Mike, and Eddie. In the twenty or so years since then, Mike has had cancer, went through a divorce, and raised 6 kids. He battled alcoholism while I battled compulsive gambling. Eddie saw many peers lost to gang violence and a tragic auto accident. I can't speak for them, but I myself have questioned God and have thrown religion away, basically....but I have no doubt that God is real. Am I being dishonest in such an assertion?

Is it better to question and doubt my previous experience...continually and persistently? Is a true and honest believer an oxymoron?


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by jar, posted 04-10-2014 10:14 AM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by ramoss, posted 04-10-2014 10:50 AM Phat has responded
 Message 225 by jar, posted 04-11-2014 10:19 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 221 of 225 (723867)
04-10-2014 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 211 by AZPaul3
04-08-2014 11:52 PM


Re: Was it reallya personal encounter with the supernatural?
Not to pry (well, yes to pry if you are willing) but are you the first person narrator in this scene or did this come to you via hearsay?
I am the narrator. It happened in my apartment. It was not a prayer meeting. And, yes, ask me any questions and feel free to interpret my conclusions and/or challenge me. Im not trying to prove anything to anyone at this point---just got bored and ran across this old topic.

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by AZPaul3, posted 04-08-2014 11:52 PM AZPaul3 has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by AZPaul3, posted 04-10-2014 4:09 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
ramoss
Member
Posts: 3046
Joined: 08-11-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 222 of 225 (723868)
04-10-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
04-10-2014 10:43 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
Not nessisarily.

However, does the one that started biting himself and talking in many voices belong to a church that has similar traditions?? Do they have people who 'speak in tongues? Can you relay what his Christian denomination background is?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 10:43 AM Phat has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 10:59 AM ramoss has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 10048
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 223 of 225 (723869)
04-10-2014 10:59 AM
Reply to: Message 222 by ramoss
04-10-2014 10:50 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
ramoss writes:

However, does the one that started biting himself and talking in many voices belong to a church that has similar traditions?? Do they have people who 'speak in tongues? Can you relay what his Christian denomination background is?

Jason was the one who was biting himself. He was a youth at the church we attended at the time.(around 17, IIRC) Eddie and Mike were around 19) I was around 36 at the time. The church was in fact very charismatic. There had been instances of alleged demon casting a couple of times in services, though none as dramatic as this.(no voices, etc) I was skeptical of the accuracy of such events---most seemed hyper emotional and had people acting weird...the teens were streetwise and far from naive, but had you asked any of us at that time before this event happened, I suppose you could conclude that we were predisposed towards belief in the possibility of such an event being possible....though with as yet no actual experience which verified or demonstrated such a thing. also...from an earlier post:
I might add that I and two other people clearly heard the voices come out of the guy. Besides the fact that the air was static and that all of us were truly scared, it was no hoax. We knew the guy well, and there were no hidden wires or speakers, which leaves the option that the voices did in fact come from him. No one could have made these sounds! I suppose that a true skeptic could assert that we were fooled, but even if that could have been so, no one has fessed up to it, and what is the point of fooling someone and never admitting it? I honestly did not find any sort of physical or character evidence that we had been hoodwinked. Alas....to me it was very real, but as a scientific proof, I have none.

Edited by Phat, : added


“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—nothing more nor less.”

This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by ramoss, posted 04-10-2014 10:50 AM ramoss has not yet responded

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 3428
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006


(1)
Message 224 of 225 (723885)
04-10-2014 4:09 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Phat
04-10-2014 10:48 AM


Re: Was it reallya personal encounter with the supernatural?
It was not a prayer meeting.

Except...

quote:
We were praying together in agreement, and we were becoming at peace with our relationships to each other, the world in general, and God as we knew Him.

That is a prayer meeting. Maybe spontaneous but none the less ...

But that's a nit pick.

Others here call your memory into question. I'm going to go the other way. I believe you experienced, in general, just what you said, though I cannot gauge whether your remembrances of all the exact details has not been, as Larni put it, "redacted" in some respect. I have no reason to doubt your experience since you are not a dumbshit with a demonstrated penchant to make up tall tales and because such catastrophic mental breakdowns are not unknown in our species. Further, I believe that you believe your remembrances exactly as you have relayed them. Frankly, no one else here has any reason to doubt you since, though through the topic you juxtapose demons and your experience, you do not come right out and claim any demonic presence.

I think the setting is key to your remembrance of that tragic event. You are a theist and gods, devils, angels and demons are part of your world view. I can understand why you might see this event in terms of some supernatural encounter.

But I also believe you are not some crackpot ready to jump to the first conclusion that enters into your religious head.

Consider that in the natural synaptic/biochemical makeup of human brains breakdowns do occur, and though " ... one of the guys with deep blood red eyes biting himself and emitting deep growls ..." is certainly extreme, there is evidence to suggest that such an extreme can have a natural cause. It may be well out there in the tail end of the bell curve but natural disease can produce such rare tragedies without resort to invoking demon possession.

Ultimately, Phat, the conclusions you draw from this experience are yours to make in your own way in your own mind. For you demon possession may be an alternative. But keep in mind there are others.

And the latter are not off-the-wall nutty like the former.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 10:48 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
jar
Member
Posts: 29612
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 225 of 225 (723960)
04-11-2014 10:19 AM
Reply to: Message 220 by Phat
04-10-2014 10:43 AM


Re: a personal encounter with the supernatural
TRUE HONEST BELIEVERS just do that; they believe.

Look at what you posted.

quote:
We were praying together in agreement, and we were becoming at peace with our relationships to each other, the world in general, and God as we knew Him.

"Praying together in agreement".

What was needed was the participant that as not in agreement, the participant that can step up and say "Nonsense!!!".

True Believers are not an oxymoron but rather just a dead end.


Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Phat, posted 04-10-2014 10:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
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