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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
Taq
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Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(2)
Message 46 of 969 (723986)
04-11-2014 1:01 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Cedre
04-11-2014 12:40 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
How so? How have I misused terminology. Let's have an honest respectable exchange shall we, I am not here to disrespect anyone.
Ernst Mayr said it best.
"Having reached the rare age of 100 years, I find myself in a unique position: I'm the last survivor of the golden age of the Evolutionary Synthesis. That status encourages me to present a personal account of what I experienced in the years (1920s to the 1950s) that were so crucial in the history of evolutionary biology. . .
By the end of the 1940s the work of the evolutionists was considered to be largely completed, as indicated by the robustness of the Evolutionary Synthesis. But in the ensuing decades, all sorts of things happened that might have had a major impact on the Darwinian paradigm. First came Avery's demonstration that nucleic acids and not proteins are the genetic material. Then in 1953, the discovery of the double helix by Watson and Crick increased the analytical capacity of the geneticists by at least an order of magnitude. Unexpectedly, however, none of these molecular findings necessitated a revision of the Darwinian paradigmnor did the even more drastic genomic revolution that has permitted the analysis of genes down to the last base pair."
Just a moment...
The Evolutionary Synthesis is neo-Darwinism. Darwin didn't know about genetics or the mechanisms of heredity. However, the discovery of these mechanisms and the evidence they produced did not require a major rewrite of Darwin's theory, as Mayr confirms.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 47 of 969 (723987)
04-11-2014 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Cedre
04-11-2014 1:00 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
That is if you ignore the critics!
Show us their peer reviewed research papers. Show us what we are ignoring.

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Replies to this message:
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Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 48 of 969 (723988)
04-11-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Taq
04-11-2014 1:02 PM


I wonder,
What is your relationship to evolution? Are you a scientist?
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Taq, posted 04-11-2014 1:02 PM Taq has replied

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 49 of 969 (723990)
04-11-2014 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 45 by Cedre
04-11-2014 1:00 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
Cedre writes:
I didn't expect to be told that the modern synthesis has been abandoned. How could it be when it is the conventional theory of evolution as taught nowadays?
Try it without the labels: the theory of evolution, as it is understood and discussed by biologists today, is not questioned. Only the details are disputed.
Cedre writes:
That is if you ignore the critics!
You keep talking about the critics but you haven't shown that there are any. Give us some examples of biologists who claim we did not evolve from a common ancestor with the chimps.

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(2)
Message 50 of 969 (723993)
04-11-2014 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Cedre
04-11-2014 12:30 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
It is however being questioned by elite scientists!
Top men?
Hmmmm.
;-)

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

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Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 51 of 969 (723995)
04-11-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by ringo
04-11-2014 1:07 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
You keep talking about the critics but you haven't shown that there are any. Give us some examples of biologists who claim we did not evolve from a common ancestor with the chimps.
Dr. John Sanford, Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Prof. Vladimir Betina, Dr. Henry Zuill, Dr. Donald Baumann, Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin, Dr Andrew Bosanquet to name some.

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 Message 49 by ringo, posted 04-11-2014 1:07 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 04-11-2014 1:20 PM Cedre has replied
 Message 55 by ringo, posted 04-11-2014 1:22 PM Cedre has replied
 Message 68 by Percy, posted 04-11-2014 2:30 PM Cedre has replied
 Message 75 by Theodoric, posted 04-11-2014 3:14 PM Cedre has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 52 of 969 (723997)
04-11-2014 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Cedre
04-11-2014 1:06 PM


Re: I wonder,
What is your relationship to evolution? Are you a scientist?
Yes. I am somewhere between an investigator and a technician. I only have a bachelors, but after many years of lab experience, there are a handful PhD's that rely on my expertise and guidance.
I have attended scientific conferences, and have yet to see a single presentation or poster that challenges evolution, or that presents an alternative theory. I read lots of papers every month, and have yet to see any original, peer reviewed research paper that makes the claims you are trying to make.
The only place where I see "scientists" abandoning neo-Darwinism is at the Discovery Center and other creationist political centers. As far as the science goes, there is nothing that we are ignoring since they produce none. What we do have is a political movement that is trying to remove evolution from classrooms because it conflicts with the religious beliefs of a narrow sect in christianity.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 53 of 969 (723998)
04-11-2014 1:20 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Cedre
04-11-2014 1:19 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
Dr. John Sanford, Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Prof. Vladimir Betina, Dr. Henry Zuill, Dr. Donald Baumann, Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin, Dr Andrew Bosanquet to name some.
Peer reviewed papers?
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 54 of 969 (723999)
04-11-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Cedre
04-11-2014 12:07 PM


Re: More confusion!
I wasn't making an argument from popularity. I simply said more scientists are questioning Neo-Darwinism. Now if I had said because more scientists are questioning Neo-Darwinism, therefore Neo-Darwinism is wrong, then you could charge me of making an argument from consensus. The reason I said this was to show how evolution is contentious.
Which would be an argument from unpopularity.
If it was true. Is it true. You say "more" and a "growing number". Do you have any evidence that the number is growing, or that there are, let us say, more this year than last year?
Or is your unsubstantive point simply a daydream that you'd like to believe?

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 55 of 969 (724000)
04-11-2014 1:22 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Cedre
04-11-2014 1:19 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
Cedre writes:
Dr. John Sanford, Dr. Kimberly Berrine, Prof. Vladimir Betina, Dr. Henry Zuill, Dr. Donald Baumann, Dr. Raymond G. Bohlin, Dr Andrew Bosanquet to name some.
Thank you. Now show us some evidence that they do actually reject the common ancestry of humans and chimps. What peer-reviewed papers have they published on the subject?

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Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 56 of 969 (724001)
04-11-2014 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Taq
04-11-2014 1:20 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
They are trained biologists with PhD's from secular universities who reject evolution.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Taq, posted 04-11-2014 1:20 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 57 of 969 (724003)
04-11-2014 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Cedre
04-11-2014 1:23 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
They are trained biologists with PhD's from secular universities who reject evolution.
Yes, and they do so because of their religious beliefs, not because of the scientific evidence.
If you think I am wrong, then show us their peer reviewed scientific papers where they lay out the scientific case for their rejection.

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 Message 56 by Cedre, posted 04-11-2014 1:23 PM Cedre has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 58 of 969 (724004)
04-11-2014 1:26 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by ringo
04-11-2014 1:22 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
Thank you. Now show us some evidence that they do actually reject the common ancestry of humans and chimps. What peer-reviewed papers have they published on the subject?
My pleasure. Whether or not they reject common ancestry is a different question, one can, like Behe accept common ancestry while rejecting Neo-Darwinism. This is not a thread on common ancestry, so lets try to keep common ancestry out!
Edited by Cedre, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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Cedre
Member (Idle past 1490 days)
Posts: 350
From: Russia
Joined: 01-30-2009


Message 59 of 969 (724007)
04-11-2014 1:32 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Taq
04-11-2014 1:25 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
Yes, and they do so because of their religious beliefs, not because of the scientific evidence.
If that is what you believe, believe it,as far as I am aware they cite scientific reasons for rejecting evolution. Why do I reject evolution? I do so because I cannot bring myself to accept it based on the complexity of the human body. In medical school we're taught just how complex a machine the human body is and I cannot imagine how how evolution can account for our nervous system, or digestive system even our skeletal system.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Taq, posted 04-11-2014 1:25 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 62 by Taq, posted 04-11-2014 1:36 PM Cedre has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 60 of 969 (724008)
04-11-2014 1:34 PM
Reply to: Message 58 by Cedre
04-11-2014 1:26 PM


Re: Why so hostile?
Cedre writes:
Whether or not they reject common ancestry is a different question....
That was the question I asked in Message 49. That was the question you were supposed to answer.
Cedre writes:
This is not a thread on common ancestry, so lets try to keep common ancestry out!
But common ancestry is what the theory of evolution is all about. I brought it up to avoid the confusion in terminology.
If all you're saying is that there's a controversy over what to to call the theory of evolution, you won't get much disagreement here. But if you're suggesting that real working biologists - who publish real peer-reviewed papers on biology - have major disagreements about how evolution works, you're dead wrong.
Edited by ringo, : Spellin.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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