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Author Topic:   I Know That God Does Not Exist
Coragyps
Member
Posts: 5349
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002
Member Rating: 3.6


Message 376 of 489 (724114)
04-12-2014 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
03-13-2014 12:53 AM


Go pile up some sand under water, Faith, and stop
making what you imagine to be threats on the internet.

"The Christian church, in its attitude toward science, shows the mind of a more or less enlightened man of the Thirteenth Century. It no longer believes that the earth is flat, but it is still convinced that prayer can cure after medicine fails." H L Mencken

This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 03-13-2014 12:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

    
Taq
Member
Posts: 7575
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 3.6


(3)
Message 377 of 489 (724211)
04-14-2014 4:23 PM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
03-13-2014 12:53 AM


Boy, are you going to be surprised in the end.

I see that you are not brave enough to use a statement that can be tested while we are alive.

I don't know about you, but I distrust people who require me to die in order to see if they are right or not.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 03-13-2014 12:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 11328
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 378 of 489 (827335)
01-23-2018 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ringo
10-12-2012 3:51 PM


Rrhaining On This Parade
Stile writes:

Are you claiming that God exists somewhere else in the universe?


ringo writes:

I'm claiming that you don't "know" He doesn't.


Stile writes:

What rationally makes you think God will exist somewhere else in the universe?


ringo writes:

Not "will" exist, could exist.

Phat writes:

quote:
You cant know that something or someone is not there until you can establish where there is.

Rrhain writes:

Why? That is, why isn't "here" good enough?

Instead, all you need is a sufficiently complete definition of what you mean by "god." When your definition is so vague that it doesn't actually say anything, then can it even be said to exist?

But with regard to the North Pole and Santa, it's called "magic." That's the same claim that every theist has ever claimed regarding their god as to why it can't be detected where it is claimed to exist.

So if that's not acceptable with regard to Santa, why does it suddenly become legitimate for god?

One notable attribute of believers in God vs Santa is that most of the God believers are otherwise rational adults.
If challenged to support their beliefs, some would honestly admit that they could not. Others would attempt an elaborate apologetic defense, followed by an attitude of selective magic which enabled them to know and understand a person heretofore unknown to others.

My fascination is with the latter group. They are, after all, not delusional. Why is it that they defend this belief in which they have so vehemently invested?


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith :)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ringo, posted 10-12-2012 3:51 PM ringo has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 379 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2018 3:29 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 381 by Rrhain, posted 01-23-2018 7:59 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply
 Message 389 by ringo, posted 02-02-2018 11:43 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6186
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 379 of 489 (827336)
01-23-2018 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by Phat
01-23-2018 3:15 AM


Re: Rrhaining On This Parade
Phat writes:

One notable attribute of believers in God vs Santa is that most of the God believers are otherwise rational adults.

People are complex. They are quite capable of holding contradictory ideas and beliefs without breaking their minds. Belief in god(s) is bounded irrationality, it doesn't have to corrupt the rest of a persons thinking but you don't have to look very far on these boards to see that it often does.


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 3:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Pressie, posted 01-23-2018 6:09 AM Tangle has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1903
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 380 of 489 (827342)
01-23-2018 6:09 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Tangle
01-23-2018 3:29 AM


Re: Rrhaining On This Parade
Tangle writes:

People are complex. They are quite capable of holding contradictory ideas and beliefs without breaking their minds. Belief in god(s) is bounded irrationality, it doesn't have to corrupt the rest of a persons thinking but you don't have to look very far on these boards to see that it often does.

I completely agree. One example I found on this board was a person who tried to convince people that slavery was not really slavery in Biblical times. And the same person called anti-slavery people uneducated.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Tangle, posted 01-23-2018 3:29 AM Tangle has not yet responded

    
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6349
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 381 of 489 (827423)
01-23-2018 7:59 PM
Reply to: Message 378 by Phat
01-23-2018 3:15 AM


Re: Rrhaining On This Parade
Phat responds to me:

quote:
One notable attribute of believers in God vs Santa is that most of the God believers are otherwise rational adults.

Are they?

Just because two million people do a dumb thing, it's still a dumb thing.

Being rational is a difficult thing to be. Most of our decisions aren't made in contradiction to our emotional desires, especially the ones that we have created with regard to our existence as human beings. It's when push comes to shove that the test of "rationality" is really made and it is very difficult to reject your own self.

quote:
My fascination is with the latter group. They are, after all, not delusional. Why is it that they defend this belief in which they have so vehemently invested?

Again, you're assuming facts not in evidence. Belief in something that has no evidence for existing and, in fact, quite a lot of evidence against (given their own definition) is something that could "rationally" be called "delusional."

Let's not pretend that this is an all-or-nothing thing; that being delusional means that every action made or thought expressed runs counter to reality. Delusional people regularly make "rational" decisions such as not crossing the street when the traffic is going. In fact, some people are quite successful despite their delusions (see the typical bigot.) Some people make quite a living feeding those delusions (again, see the typical bigot-monger.)

But as to why, you answered your own question: They're invested. They have emotionally invested themselves in this and thus will not give it up lightly. People do this all the time. It's why people think their loved ones can't have done the things they did, even when shown direct evidence that they did. So if you have an emotional investment in your "immortal soul," you're not going to give up the idea of not going to hell with any ease.


Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 3:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

    
frako
Member
Posts: 2792
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 382 of 489 (827427)
01-24-2018 5:04 AM
Reply to: Message 369 by Faith
03-13-2014 12:53 AM


Boy, are you going to be surprised in the end.

Given the way the universe seems to be rigged to surprise you, i would not bat an eyelash if there was a heaven but only for atheists. But that does not mean i am going to structure my life on the off chance there is a heaven only for atheists.

Edited by frako, : No reason given.


Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand

What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 369 by Faith, posted 03-13-2014 12:53 AM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Pressie, posted 01-24-2018 6:20 AM frako has not yet responded

    
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1903
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 383 of 489 (827428)
01-24-2018 6:20 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by frako
01-24-2018 5:04 AM


To me heaven would consist of a beer volcano and a stripper factory. My wife would be quite upset in such a heaven, though. It certainly won't be peachy to sleep alone on the couch forever and ever and ever...

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.

Edited by Pressie, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by frako, posted 01-24-2018 5:04 AM frako has not yet responded

    
AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 384 of 489 (827832)
02-02-2018 9:58 AM


Atheists "rationally" hope to attain unto perfect non-existence))))
Apparently, that is their reward for preaching atheism hard enough . . .
Replies to this message:
 Message 385 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2018 10:05 AM AlexCaledin has responded
 Message 388 by Stile, posted 02-02-2018 10:23 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6186
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 385 of 489 (827835)
02-02-2018 10:05 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by AlexCaledin
02-02-2018 9:58 AM


AC writes:

Atheists "rationally" hope to attain unto perfect non-existence))))

I've read this several times but it still doesn't make any sense. What are you trying to say?


Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-02-2018 9:58 AM AlexCaledin has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-02-2018 10:13 AM Tangle has responded

  
AlexCaledin
Member (Idle past 128 days)
Posts: 41
From: Samara, Russia
Joined: 10-22-2016


Message 386 of 489 (827836)
02-02-2018 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by Tangle
02-02-2018 10:05 AM


- just what you said! All such discussions never make sense.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2018 10:05 AM Tangle has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Tangle, posted 02-02-2018 10:21 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

    
Tangle
Member
Posts: 6186
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 2.0


Message 387 of 489 (827838)
02-02-2018 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by AlexCaledin
02-02-2018 10:13 AM


Well ok, if you're happy to post stuff that doesn't make sense, I'm happy to ignore you.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona

"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android

"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-02-2018 10:13 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 3243
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004
Member Rating: 2.7


Message 388 of 489 (827839)
02-02-2018 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 384 by AlexCaledin
02-02-2018 9:58 AM


AlexCaledin writes:

Atheists "rationally" hope to attain unto perfect non-existence))))

I'm an atheist.
I don't hope for such a thing.

Apparently, that is their reward for preaching atheism hard enough . . .

I'm not looking for any rewards, either.
And I don't intend to preach atheism at all. I like having religious-folk around. Some of them have interesting ideas.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by AlexCaledin, posted 02-02-2018 9:58 AM AlexCaledin has not yet responded

    
ringo
Member
Posts: 15423
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 1.8


Message 389 of 489 (827847)
02-02-2018 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by Phat
01-23-2018 3:15 AM


Re: Rrhaining On This Parade
Phat writes:

One notable attribute of believers in God vs Santa is that most of the God believers are otherwise rational adults.


One notable attribute of believers in God is that they like to think they're being rational about their belief.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Phat, posted 01-23-2018 3:15 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4621
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


(1)
Message 390 of 489 (827862)
02-02-2018 5:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Stile
10-10-2012 2:27 PM


The problem with your argument is that you aren't aware that it's basically a representative Black-Swan fallacy.

If you personally "know God doesn't exist", you can only go from your lack of knowledge as a personal matter, which is different from empirically proving knowledge or logically arriving at a sound conclusion. So then, yes, in a way you "know God doesn't exist" in the sense that God isn't part of your own reality, but only your own experience, since you argue based on that, largely.

This is the problem, you state yourself in your argument that we, "look for the thing" where it is supposed to be or the effects it is supposed to leave, etc...and your problem is that you are only looking at your own experience in not getting any data where others have. But that may well mean that you and those others will only accept a false standard of persuasion, because of psychological bias.

Stile writes:

Therefore, I know that God does not exist.
I, and many other people, have looked for where God is proposed to exist for almost the entirety of human history. It is possible that "God's existance" is the most looked for thing ever. But no data has ever been obtained that indicates God's existance

Wrong on both counts. Firstly, you and those like you have, "looked for God" according to your own God-like arrogant definition and, "not found God". Because a portion has not found Him doesn't mean others haven't, and if it is a case of ignorance versus knowledge then you represent the more unreliable. By analogy if I say, "open your fists" having close your hands, and there is nothing in them, and many others ask me to open their fists, they and all like them might conclude that "some ERGO all", which is an inductive error, that because a portion has empty hands, all do.

The biggest problem with unbelief is it doesn't give you knowledge. So to say, "God doesn't exist" having seen no effects, and God hasn't satisfied your own personal demands, is a weak argument, if others have experienced God and God's effects (which we have) based on God's agenda and will. This makes you ignorant, and so you aren't really arguing from knowledge but ignorance where others aren't ignorant.

Secondly to state there is no data to indicate God's existence, as an assertion, is not only absurd intellectually but it is TOTALLY based again, on you playing God and only defining such evidence as that which you yourself would say counts. That way you basically define everything that exists as, "not God".

That is a RUBBISH way to define evidence for God. I prefer the sound way, by logically and correctly qualifying evidence of a Creator as that which would usually "follow" if a creator exists, namely created things. What are created things and what do they contain? We can see this from things we know to be created by creators, (humans).

So then there is plenty of consistent evidence which is more indicative of God existing and it is a logical contradiction to say for example, that such evidence is, "no data", for that is the same as saying that a painting is, "no data" that a painter exists/existed.

According to the USUAL definition of a creator, (rather than the definition used by atheists, of, "nothing that exists", LOL) there is plentiful evidence of God, in all things which have order, specified complexity, genius solutions in nature, such as the aggregate eye obeying several very complex physical laws, neat formulas physicists largely tell us indicates theism rather than not, in other words, it is more reasonable to expect from a Godless world, a random chaotic mess, and where we find beautiful design, order, a well laid plan riddle with contingencies, whatever the usual designer thing is, we find evidence consistent with God.

Now note I didn't affirm the consequent, I did not say, "this is evidence of God therefore it came from God", but rather I am attacking the absurd notion that there is "no data" consistent with God existing. I am afraid that notion, only belongs to biased unbelievers that simply want to assert that any possible consistent evidence of God, is not evidence of God.

Stile writes:

Example: "I know that Santa Claus does not exist."
This is more like the "I know that God does not exist" claim.

Why? Invisibility is not only shared with false things but also with true things. A higgs boson was believed, not "known", for a long time. In the same way we see the effects of a creation but not the required creator. The comparison to santa claus is problematic because it only focuses on the elements God and Santa share. It can be shown logically that invisible things, can either be false things or true things. I cannot presently see oxygen? So then for a long time oxygen couldn't be detected, or germs, does that mean we would compare them with santa? So then why do atheists choose to compare God to santa but never to things which would be invisible, but are possible existent?

Thus it is begging-the-question fallacy, a subtle one, but all the same that fallacy, because your hidden assumption is that we must only compare God to things either which seem absurdly false to us or we know to be false, rather than to compare God to things which may be true but may share some elements with God.

So then, "santa" and, "multi-universes" or "bosons", all share SOME elements with God. The question is, do we, "know" all of the elements?

Answer; no. There are some things we don't know, technically. Intellectualy speaking, if God exists then it would just mean it is possible to have an invisible supernatural entity exist, that shares elements with a fantasy-figure. Why then, is the true question, do they share the elements?

The answer is because our imagination can create false things because false things can be invisible, therefore it is a tautology, that anything you can think up can be equal to God in God's invisibility.

I don't believe you have thought such things through.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Stile, posted 10-10-2012 2:27 PM Stile has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 391 by Taq, posted 02-02-2018 6:09 PM mike the wiz has not yet responded
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