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Author Topic:   Why is evolution so controversial?
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 196 of 969 (724256)
04-15-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 195 by RAZD
04-15-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Back to earth
I think a valid objection to the cow test is that it is not something that MUST occur if the ToE is false.
But this is true of any proposed falsification of any theory at all. What MUST happen if the theory of gravity is false? Er.. who can say?
We can say what may happen if it's true, what must happen if it's true, and what can't happen if it's true, but no-one can say what would happen if it was false.
Nested hierarchies are a prediction of the ToE, so finding fossil or genetic evidence that cannot fit into nested hierarchies would counter the prediction and need to be explained by some other mechanism.
Yes, but again you can't say that that MUST happen if it was false, you can only say that it can't happen if it's true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 04-15-2014 11:36 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 197 of 969 (724259)
04-15-2014 12:20 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by New Cat's Eye
04-15-2014 11:28 AM


Re: Why Is Evolution So Uncontroversial?
Thanks CS. Apparently my sense of humor is not too subtle. But using the blinds did the trick.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 198 of 969 (724260)
04-15-2014 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 195 by RAZD
04-15-2014 11:36 AM


Re: Back to earth
I think a valid objection to the cow test is that it is not something that MUST occur if the ToE is false.
You are making the logical error that I believe Faith actually avoided, although perhaps not clearly so.
What you are describing is not falsification of TOE. What you are describing is how we might find evidence or the lack thereof of some other theory.
I think Faith is saying that the cow test is an insincere offering by pro-evolutioners. She's wrong because the cow is not meant to be just a cow. The cow is a stand-in for dogs, rabbits, ferrets, and every other mammal or even for every other land animal depending of the period being discussed.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 195 by RAZD, posted 04-15-2014 11:36 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by ringo, posted 04-15-2014 12:36 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 04-15-2014 12:44 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 241 by RAZD, posted 04-16-2014 11:21 AM NoNukes has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 199 of 969 (724262)
04-15-2014 12:36 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by NoNukes
04-15-2014 12:28 PM


Re: Back to earth
NoNukes writes:
She's wrong because the cow is not meant to be just a cow. The cow is a stand-in for dogs, rabbits, ferrets, and every other mammal or even for every other land animal depending of the period being discussed.
"Cow" is funnier because of the "k" sound. The same applies to "crocoduck", which is three times as funny.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 12:28 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


(3)
Message 200 of 969 (724265)
04-15-2014 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by NoNukes
04-15-2014 12:28 PM


Re: Back to earth
NoNukes writes:
She's wrong because the cow is not meant to be just a cow. The cow is a stand-in for dogs, rabbits, ferrets, and every other mammal or even for every other land animal depending of the period being discussed.
And the Precambrian is just a stand-in for every other geologic period where modern land animals wouldn't fit. This, too, has been explained to Faith.
I'm amazed at Faith's ability to send us into a tizzy of explanations. We should well know by now that she doesn't listen to explanations. She's not here to discuss science - she's here making a testimony of faith.
Any rational person, especially after a decade of this, would think, "Gee, I'm not convincing anyone, including those sympathetic to my position. I've got to go off and rethink this."
But Faith will never do that. Because she's not rational. She's religious.
I'll mention again that we're off-topic, but Cedre's gone for now so I don't think it matters.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 12:28 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 2:49 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 201 of 969 (724270)
04-15-2014 2:49 PM
Reply to: Message 200 by Percy
04-15-2014 12:44 PM


Re: Back to earth
I'll mention again that we're off-topic, but Cedre's gone for now so I don't think it matters.
I'm not sure I've made an on topic comment, but one of the ideas expressed in the OP was surprise at the limited amount of instruction on evolution found in medical school.
I don't find that lack the least bit surprising. Doctors are not paleontologists. A doctor could easily find non TOE friendly explanations for why pathogens evolve and having done so, the physician would have no real need to worry about evolution ever again.
Accordingly, that lack does not make evolution controversial in any significant way, nor does one of his professors being relatively ignorant on the topic mean that evolution is controversial among scientists, assuming we can take Cedre's anecdote as accurately reflecting what the professor actually said.
And of course, I would expect that Cedre and his silly anecdote understates the amount of biology taught in medical school anyway. Senator Paul Broun of Georgia who is also a doctor does not say that evolution was not taught in medical school. He instead accuses his professors of teaching lies from the pits of Hell.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 200 by Percy, posted 04-15-2014 12:44 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 202 by Percy, posted 04-15-2014 3:18 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 202 of 969 (724273)
04-15-2014 3:18 PM
Reply to: Message 201 by NoNukes
04-15-2014 2:49 PM


Re: Back to earth
NoNukes writes:
And of course, I would expect that Cedre and his silly anecdote understates the amount of biology taught in medical school anyway.
I don't think biology is an important area of study for doctors. If I recall the prerequisites for applying to medical school I believe they were a semester of biology, two semesters of chemistry, and a semester of organic chemistry. The Harvard Course Requirements are a year of biology but two years of chemistry with a semester of organic chemistry. Evolution doesn't get a mention.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 2:49 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 211 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 5:26 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 203 of 969 (724275)
04-15-2014 3:37 PM
Reply to: Message 190 by Faith
04-15-2014 10:58 AM


Re: Back to earth
The idea that it is to be expected from the Flood comes from evolutionists because of course you all have a big problem thinking outside your interpretive box.
To be precise, we have a big problem in believing that water can do absolutely anything that you, Faith, want it to do. Perhaps you could demonstrate this power by ordering water to climb out of a glass and jump through a couple of hoops. Until then, we shall continue to think that the action of water is constrained by the laws of hydrodynamics rather than by your wishes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 190 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 10:58 AM Faith has not replied

  
subbie
Member (Idle past 1254 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 204 of 969 (724277)
04-15-2014 4:15 PM
Reply to: Message 188 by NoNukes
04-15-2014 10:49 AM


Re: Not all the Steves in the Project Steve list are biological scientists
NoNukes writes:
Darn it. I missed some humor again didn't I?
Hey, you picked it up before I, or anyone else, had to explain it to you. I'd call that a win if I were you.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 10:49 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 205 of 969 (724280)
04-15-2014 4:52 PM


Good grief!
Of COURSE "cow" represents all mammals!
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 206 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2014 5:04 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 207 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 5:15 PM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 206 of 969 (724282)
04-15-2014 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
04-15-2014 4:52 PM


Re: Good grief!
Of COURSE "cow" represents all mammals!
It was originally a Rabbit in the Precambrian.
But really, any mammal will work, because according to evolutionary theory, the Precambrian happened millions of years before mammals evolved.
So if we found out that there were, actually, mammals in the precambrian layers, then we'd have to rethink our current theory.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 4:52 PM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 207 of 969 (724286)
04-15-2014 5:15 PM
Reply to: Message 205 by Faith
04-15-2014 4:52 PM


Re: Good grief!
Of COURSE "cow" represents all mammals!
Did you really think that cow was anything other than the first mammal on the poster's mind?
I must apologize to Dr. Adequate and Taq. I was totally wrong about you.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 205 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 4:52 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 208 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2014 5:22 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 5:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 208 of 969 (724288)
04-15-2014 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by NoNukes
04-15-2014 5:15 PM


Re: Good grief!
Did you really think that cow was anything other than the first mammal on the poster's mind?
Honestly, I thought it had something to do with alliteration.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 5:15 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 209 of 969 (724289)
04-15-2014 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by NoNukes
04-15-2014 5:15 PM


Calling AZPaul!
He's defended me from this sort of stupidity before, both CS and NN having suffered some kind of mental collapse, I hope he'll do it again, even if he does hate everything I believe and will say it as obnoxiously as possible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 5:15 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 210 by New Cat's Eye, posted 04-15-2014 5:23 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 212 by NoNukes, posted 04-15-2014 5:28 PM Faith has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 210 of 969 (724290)
04-15-2014 5:23 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Faith
04-15-2014 5:22 PM


Re: Calling AZPaul!
both CS and NN having suffered some kind of mental collapse
Yeah, and you're just a stupid bitch.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Faith, posted 04-15-2014 5:22 PM Faith has not replied

  
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