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Author | Topic: Is there a legitimate argument for design? | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
Ed67 Member (Idle past 3357 days) Posts: 159 Joined: |
CS writes:
frako writes:
The same place Watson and Crick saw it, silly. Where do you see the code? If you don't believe that, there's nothing i can do for you.
If you could be more specific about how you think you're saying the same things, then you might make more sense. If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you.
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Omnivorous Member Posts: 3990 From: Adirondackia Joined: Member Rating: 6.9
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Ed writes: CS writes:
If you don't believe that, there's nothing i can do for you.
frako writes:
The same place Watson and Crick saw it, silly. Where do you see the code? If you could be more specific about how you think you're saying the same things, then you might make more sense. If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you. How you do go on--but, in this case, I agree."If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."
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subbie Member (Idle past 1282 days) Posts: 3509 Joined:
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You still have yet to explain why you keep citing James Watson to support your bizarre ideas that Watson himself says are only for the uneducated.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
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Ed67 Member (Idle past 3357 days) Posts: 159 Joined: |
sore loser
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frako Member (Idle past 333 days) Posts: 2932 From: slovenija Joined: |
The same place Watson and Crick saw it, silly. This is getting really pathetic, dude. You can't even understand the basic function of DNA. making proteins to make a protein A polymerase binds to the dna and splits it apart because thats the chemical reaction you get when those 2 things interact. It then syntesises a mRNA from the chemichal reactions that take place. Than mRNA strand leaves the nucleus and reacts with a ribosome. The protein is then built by chemical reactions oncly certein molecules can react with the part of mRNA that is reacting with the ribosome when they do the ribosome moves up 3 spaces and only certrtein molecules can react with that part of the mRNA molecule slowly building up the protein when the end is reached a water molecule is added the protein brakes free, and the rest falls apart. where is the code? What does it do and how does it work? Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.
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Larni Member Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Hi Ed67, welcome to EvC!
Ed67 writes: In a molecule. I think the point people are trying to make is that there is nothing in the molecule (other than the various bonds). The physical structure is the sum totality of the molecule and all of the effects it can have are a result of the physical structure. It simply is. It does not have something non physical embedded into it to act the way it does.The above ontological example models the zero premise to BB theory. It does so by applying the relative uniformity assumption that the alleged zero event eventually ontologically progressed from the compressed alleged sub-microscopic chaos to bloom/expand into all of the present observable order, more than it models the Biblical record evidence for the existence of Jehovah, the maximal Biblical god designer. -Attributed to Buzsaw Message 53 The explain to them any scientific investigation that explains the existence of things qualifies as science and as an explanation-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 286 Does a query (thats a question Stile) that uses this physical reality, to look for an answer to its existence and properties become theoretical, considering its deductive conclusions are based against objective verifiable realities.-Attributed to Dawn Bertot Message 134
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AZPaul3 Member Posts: 8558 From: Phoenix Joined: Member Rating: 4.9
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Hey folks, our creationist antagonist here, Ed67, is going to insist that the order of nucleics in DNA/RNA is a code and for very good reason. The reality is, as we here all know, that DNA/RNA mimic so closely a human-devised code that there is no reasonable option in conversation than to refer to them as codes. Language takes the expedient route to foster understanding even if that understanding isn't exactly accurate.
Big Bang explosion anyone? The problem here is that our religionist friend, and he has left the clues multiple times in this thread, has not progressed from the DNA=code analogy he learned in high school. He is stuck in that juvenile analogy having failed to learn beyond the most basic. In Ed67's case, this may be charade to bolster his religious case for creationism. But other aspects of his missives here indicate to me that he honestly does not see, and is trying very hard to not see, the disconnect between his "code" idea and his "thus god" conclusion. Without DNA/RNA defined as a "code" in the classic sense he cannot then jump to "all codes we have ever experienced were created by intelligence thus so must be DNA/RNA thus there are yhwh, elohim, jahovah, allah and their respective corteges complete with pronouncements of light, eloquent serpents and global inundations." The rub comes with the reality that DNA/RNA, except for the superficial mimicry, is not anything like any code ever devised by human intellect. Human devised codes are arbitrary symbols, artificial human constructs, that, by agreement, represent other artificial human constructs. Letters for words, words for ideas; numbers for grids, grids for locations. Without a convention, a legend of agreed upon meanings between the symbol and its underlying construct, there is no code. Though we may use arbitrary symbols (ACTG and sometimes U) in representing the DNA/RNA code the underlying property is not another construct but is a real physical entity that does not follow any artificial convention of understanding. The DNA/RNA "code" is just a facade to foster our understanding of the chemistry. These molecules have no choice but to act and react according to the physical rules of organic chemistry. Unlike the artificiality of a human code, this genetic code is a symbolic overlay for a physical reality that requires no intellect to conjure movement, only the electrochemical properties of the valence electrons. To us it may look like a "code" but thymine couldn't care less what we call it and will do what it does because it has to regardless of the intellect selecting the symbol. No intelligently devised code on this planet works this way. Ed67 is on an anti-science religious mission to redefine reality to his own emotional comfort, as is the case with all creationists. In Ed67's case he is not openly using verse from an infallible literalist bible. He is trying to hide behind a lab coat (buttoned up to the top to hide the crucifix) eschewing his true belief in his god for some amorphous intelligent designer. The nefarious purpose being to garner some political advantage in the hope that some day he and his colleagues can wrest control of the schools and of society from the people and bring them back, once again, to the church. A rather verbose way of pointing out that the usage of "code" for a nucleic acid sequence is not of much concern. Ed67 will not, can not, acknowledge the fact that this informal usage of the word by geneticists, biologists, indeed all scientists, even in formal presentations and papers, does not give him the advantage his weak faith so desperately seeks.
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Ed67 Member (Idle past 3357 days) Posts: 159 Joined: |
Larni writes: Hi Ed67, welcome to EvC!Ed67 writes: In a molecule. I think the point people are trying to make is that there is nothing in the molecule (other than the various bonds). The physical structure is the sum totality of the molecule and all of the effects it can have are a result of the physical structure. It simply is. It does not have something non physical embedded into it to act the way it does. Thank you , Larni
quote:http://profiles.nlm.nih.gov/...trieve/Narrative/SC/p-nid/153 Now, can anyone find in this quote WHERE the code is? Edited by Ed67, : No reason given. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given. Edited by Ed67, : No reason given.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined:
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and he behaves increasingly like a troll in passing out insults and not answering questions ...
Personally I don't think he can answer the questions ... so he tries to pretend (to himself) that he does with replies he must think are quite witty, but which actually are relatively obviously simply failure to reply honestly. He's in an axe fight ... with an axe to grind ... that is so dull that it can't cut the mustard ... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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Ed67 Member (Idle past 3357 days) Posts: 159 Joined: |
I think you guys have spent too much time sitting around congratulating each other. You've got some kind of creepy 'group think' going on where you all have developed the same blind spots.
You all have to get out more...
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JonF Member (Idle past 196 days) Posts: 6174 Joined:
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If you don't believe that, there's nothing i can do for you. Oh, there's plenty you could do it you understood the issue.
If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you. Damn right. Have you reflected on the fact that nothing you have said (or, it seems, will say) makes sense to anybody?
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vimesey Member (Idle past 100 days) Posts: 1398 From: Birmingham, England Joined:
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Let's see if we can get through with an analogy.
I don't know if you learned any languages at school, but I learned French and German. When you start out at school, you're taught the "rules" of the language - how verbs are conjugated, how words are ordered, how cases are constructed. It helps you to learn how to speak the language. But here's the thing - no one created those "rules". They're simply an orderly description of how the language has evolved to operate. No one sat down with a pen and paper and determined how those "rules" would operate - they're simply descriptive tools that a teacher employs. And as you become more educated in the language, and more fluent, you stop referring to the rules, and instead start using the language fluently to hold a conversation. In fact, you begin to realize that the "rules" have exceptions, that they get broken and that they change sometimes. They are simply an inadequate descriptive overlay of something which was never created using those "rules". The situation is exactly the same with genetic "coding". This is a descriptive tool, used to assist the understanding of those starting to learn about DNA (or those who simply need a basic understanding of it). As a scientist's expertise in the field grows (to the extremely high levels of many of the contributors here), the descriptive tool of "coding" becomes meaningless to their depth of understanding - and entirely misleading. The use of the term "code" does not imply any writing of a code of any sort, in exactly the same way as the use of the term "rules" does not imply anyone creating the French language by inventing rules for it.Could there be any greater conceit, than for someone to believe that the universe has to be simple enough for them to be able to understand it ?
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NoNukes Inactive Member
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He's in an axe fight ... with an axe to grind ... that is so dull that it can't cut the mustard ... No. He's a troll. EvC is about the easiest troll target I could imagine, and Ed67 is simply taking advantage of our desire for new creationist/ID meat to chew on. And every message including yours and the one I am writing now simply feed the troll. Even AZPaul3's was an acknowledgement of irritation. Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846) I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member
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If you don't believe that, He testified in court, under oath, that ID is not science. How can you think he's seeing the same thing as you?
there's nothing i can do for you. Try writing a coherent argument that explains what you mean.
If you can't make sense of what I've said so far, nothing I say will make sense to you. So you've reached your limit? Honestly, you've been very unimpressive. Its like you're hardly trying.
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RAZD Member (Idle past 1433 days) Posts: 20714 From: the other end of the sidewalk Joined: |
No. He's a troll. EvC is about the easiest troll target I could imagine, ... Actually I think it is part of the natural evolution of creationists\IDologists on this forum, when the run out of the regurgitated pap they think is ammunition, there is nothing left so all they have to fall back on is nonsensical ramblings and insults.
... and Ed67 is simply taking advantage of our desire for new creationist/ID meat to chew on. And all the meat has been chewed off long ago, leaving only gristle, the intractable belief in spite of evidence to the contrary.
And every message including yours and the one I am writing now simply feed the troll. Even AZPaul3's was an acknowledgement of irritation. But so entertaining to watch the monkey dance .... by our ability to understand Rebel American Zen Deist ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ... to share. Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)
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