Do We NEED God?

I like your spirit dude. Even your title, "nothing works for everyone," I love that! I love that because that is what Christianity has done so often; create this cookie-cutter, clone-like, "works for everyone" kind of mentality. A mentality that says "if you don't look a certain way or act a certain way, you cannot join "Club Christian" as Jar would say haha. But that is so frustratingly wrong, since the spiritual life different for everyone. Spirituality is messy! Thanks for your open-mindedness homie. Again, you are clearly an intelligent, open minded individual and I respect that. I agree with everything you just said. I see. And that's where we differ, right? You believe that since there is uncertainty, it cannot be trusted. At least that's what I'm assuming, could be wrong. I believe that scripture is valid. I don't think I need to prove it is, though we could go down that road. I don't think you're here because you're hoping someone will give you the magic answer, quelling all doubts, convincing you to make the shape shift into a religious person haha. All I can say is I was lost, and now I am found. Me. Tony. He changed my life. That's totally fine. I guess it's a faith issue right?It's not about Churches or choirs or doctrine or theology or pastors or priests or saints or sinners or gays or abortion or heaven or even hell, it's about Jesus. The historical character Jesus who claimed to be God. He doesn't tell you to go to church. He says: That's what it's about. Plain and simple. Maybe you're searching for something better? Maybe I am. Maybe we all are? You know what, at the end of the day, "being right" isn't really what I'm concerned with. I honesntly don't think I'm right. No way could i get it, 100%, with zero error. All I have is scripture and my subjective experience. There's plenty I don't know man. But what is do know is what Jesus talks about. Something more than this. Something greater. Our part in a greater story. Your part dude. Totally agree. We don't need to agree that humanity needs grace, we simply do, if we're pointing to scripture as the basis of that statement. And we have it, freely given, no strings attached. But we don't agree that scripture is valid, and that's fine. True man, true. It's rough sometimes right? And great others. That's cool. I guess when it comes down to it, scripture says humanity has a need: we are lost. But God, as the One who transcends all, in His mercy and love, took responsibility for our getting lost, and now we have an incredible gift in store: literal co-heir status alongside Jesus Christ (Galatians 4, Ephesians 2), a better place, past our daily struggles and frustrations, and life forever. Not because I was a good person, or even good from my subjective perspective, not because I prayed a prayer or sang a song or made a confession or even attended a church, but simply because that's who God is, and it's yours too.Regards!- Raph

so to you, truth is relative and not absolute. I understand.

If truth was absolute, it would be the same for everyone.
Trivially, this isn't true.Therefore, truth is relative until it is the same for everyone.Things would certainly be easier if it were absolute, but alas, this is not what we see.

Truth is one of those words that should only be used in very limited circumstances and never used without also including qualifications or out of context.

Yes, that's where I'm coming from.
It doesn't mean it's absolutely wrong, or completely useless or anything like that. It means I am unable to trust it so I am unable to assume conclusions are valid based on it's message alone. No need to prove it to me, there are millions of examples of people who think that scripture is extremely valid. I wouldn't deny such a thing.
If you do want to go through the exercise for other reasons... feel free to start a thread on it. There's even a whole Bible Study forum here for such things. If you do, I could explain to you how it is not valid for me. (Or, maybe, I haven't heard your explanation yet and it will resonate with me and I'll convert! ) I don't think "the internet" is a very good interface for finding such an answer. But it's a decent start to get the mind ticking...
I do, however, already consider myself very religious in a spiritual way. Just not in a way related to Jesus. It's always good to hear when people find that aspect of inner connection for themselves.
It sounds like you're very honest with yourself and your beliefs and you make sure your thoughts align with your experiences. This is the most anyone can ask for, it is an unending source of strength and confidence. Yup. As far as I can tell, anyway.
The important thing is to be honest with yourself and make sure your faith lines up with your experiences and your thoughts.If you research Christianity, or Jesus, or any specific religion, and it "speaks" to you, and you can feel comfortable with it's claims... then I would guess that you're on the right path.If you're only in church 'cause your mom and dad tell you to go, or only going through the motions of any spiritual activity just because friends and peers go that route... then I don't think you're going to find any answers where you are.I think this is true for Christianity, and I think it is true for whatever-my-religion-is... I think it is true for all spiritual matters. The point of spirituality is to find answers to questions that may not have answers. What those questions are, and which answers will satisfy them will be different for different people. It is up to each of us to be honest and find out the important questions and possible answers for ourselves. Not from what other people insist they should be.Some of us will need absolute answers.
Some of us will need concrete answers.
Some of us will need open-ended answers.
Some of us will need incomplete answers.It can be difficult to fathom how different people can think so differently from ourselves. But the evidence that this is true is plain for everyone to see.It is as basic as some people like vanilla, and others like chocolate.
It's as serious as some people want to have children, and others do not.
But the principle is the same.No one can decide for you which flavour of ice cream is best for you.
No one can decide for you whether or not you should have children.No one can give you the religion or spirituality that is going to answer the questions that you need answers for.You can learn from other people, and I think that's a great plan.
You can see what works for others, and see if it may also work for you.But, ultimately, you are the one who rests with your ideas when you sleep at night.
You are the one who judges if you feel at ease or not with the priorities you hold as important.If others decide such things for you, you will always be somewhat uncomfortable... you will always be eating vanilla when you actually want chocolate. I'm always searching for "something better." It's up to you to figure out what you're doing.
But I'll guarantee "we are all" not wanting any single thing. People are too different.I mean, look at this: Learn to Hold your Breath.There are people who try to not breathe.
Breathing! The most simple, everybody-does-it thing for all humans... and there are those of us who train in order to do it as rarely as possible.It doesn't matter what it is... you'll find people who search for it, and others who don't.Spirituality is about figuring out what it is that you want to search for... and then taking steps to reach that goal.There will be people who can help... but the responsibility must be on the individual in question. If not... then the ideas and experiences are not going to align for that individual (at least not completely) and therefore they will feel some level of "discomfort" that could be avoided. I am looking for my part in a greater story.Unfortunately, Jesus is not "a greater story" for me. At least, none of the Jesus-people that have ever been shown to me by others or the Bible, anyway.
Jesus is a bit too detached from my experiences. Maybe one day He'll come to save me, and I'm all for that (or for anyone else to come and save me). But such a thing just hasn't happened for me.But, for me, that's okay. I'm not looking for Jesus, and I don't need Jesus (as far as I can tell).
I have found my part in "a greater story" in life itself, doing what I can to help the people I love.From what people have told me... Jesus brings Love and Honesty and Strength and Peace and Humility and Safety and Protection and Meaning and all sorts of other virtues.But, for me, I already have those virtues without Jesus. Jesus doesn't add these things to my experiences. For me, I am more attached to these virtues directly instead of "going through" Jesus to get them.I'm not ignoring Jesus or against Him... He sounds pretty wonderful. I just do not see His connection to reality that other people claim is there. If I can ever find such a connection (and in my search for "something better," I'm always open and looking), then I will pursue it further. But, for now, it's just not there. And, to me, this connection to reality is an important factor. I understand this gift.
I think it's important for the reasons you've listed here because of the humility that goes along with it.
I just don't get this gift from God, I get it from life itself.For me, getting such a thing from God doesn't work. Because of my experiences, I do not believe God exists. Therefore, I cannot fully understand getting such a gift from an entity that doesn't exist.But I know that life exists, and I know that life is capable of giving such a gift. This is what works for me. And so I am fulfilled by it, completely... because it aligns with my experiences.(I feel like this post got kinda long and preachy... sorry about that. Maybe I am just kinda long and preachy... )

Sounded honest so far. I did notice that you went out of your way to bring it up. We Christians always jump to attention whenever Jesus is mentioned, after all. Ringo mentions that foolish virgins look for Whom is already here. It just seems that you consider yourself to have replaced Jesus...am I right so far? I think that a lot of this revolves around who we believe Jesus to be...an upgrade to our own personalities or a connection to God Himself. And of course, believing in God would also assume that we need God.The only thing that scares me about what you believe has to do with the scripture that suggests that we who feel self sufficient are blind since we don't acknowledge our blindness..(our need.)Critics would, however, say that this type of teaching has human origins in that it forces people to need what the church provides.At any rate, I cannot help but respect your honesty.

Bring what up? "Jesus?"
I didn't bring up Jesus. I was replying to a fellow who brought it up himself. He brought it up first in Message 88
But what if I did "go out of my way" to bring up Jesus? What do you think that would mean?I have no issues talking about Jesus. I just don't think Jesus exists, or ever existed as depicted in the Bible. No, that's not right at all.
Jesus isn't replaced with me. Jesus is replaced with the things Jesus stands for... Love and Honesty and Strength and Peace and Humility and Safety and Protection and Meaning and all sorts of other virtues.It's more direct that way.Like this:Phat -> Jesus -> Love and other virtues
Stile -> Love and other virtuesIn no way do I think I am Jesus.
Nor do I think that I am personally some embodiment of "Love and other virtues" (I'm not even sure how that would make sense).I just don't see any reason to go through Jesus to get to the same destination. I do not generally believe that scripture is very useful.
However, this statement of "we who feel self sufficient are blind since we don't acknowledge our blindness" seems like a wonderful statement of wisdom. I wonder if there's a Chinese Proverb saying the same thing?Ah, here we go:"Only through the eyes of others can we really see our own faults."
-Chinese ProverbSounds pretty similar to me.
Not that I have any attachment to Chinese Proverbs either... I just find it interesting that these pockets of wisdom pop up throughout pretty much every culture.What part about following the virtues of Love and such do you think is not acknowledging my own blindness?
If there is such an aspect... how do you think Jesus could prevent this?I am very interested in your response to my two questions above. If I am ignoring a certain fault, I would be happy to have it illuminated so I can make the necessary corrections (even go through Jesus, if He is the only way).

So believing in France assumes that we need France? Remember the beam in the eye?

quote:

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Matthew 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

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At least some of the followers are blind too.

what specifically are the two questions again?

Sorry, that was a bit ambiguous.I meant the two directly above that paragraph. These two (bolded, at the end):

What part about following the virtues of Love and such do you think is not acknowledging my own blindness? Because you don't think or believe that Jesus is necessary. You believe that we humans are equally capable of being like Jesus without needing Jesus. If there is such an aspect... how do you think Jesus could prevent this? If we enter into communion we are empowered by not only our own wisdom but of the wisdom of the One whom we are in communion with. Its a clear win/win in my eyes.Now for my question. If Jesus exists and is a conduit to God, is it still better--in your eyes---to attempt to develop your own virtues and character apart from the need for a boost or help? If so, do you believe that even in regards to communion it is better for the human society to have communion with itself---with no outside need of interference by a Creator?(If One actually exists)

This would only make sense if you can show how Jesus is, indeed, necessary.
The fact that I've considered the option, and I'm open to the option, and simply currently think that the available information points away from your conclusion... doesn't make me blind. It just means that I hold "evidence" as a higher priority than "Phat's personal feelings" when attempting to determine reality.I am open to being wrong (and I may well be wrong). If it's ever found... evidence supporting Jesus-as-necessary would convince me that Jesus is actually necessary.I do actually acknowledge that I have a blindness to the truth.
In my experiences... the best way to deal with this blindness and get as close as we can to the truth is to follow all the evidence (not just the Bible).
Therefore... I follow all the evidence which currently says Jesus is not necessary.There is no correlation between "not acknowledging my own blindness" and "not believing that Jesus is necessary" unless you can actually provide conclusive information pointing towards Jesus being necessary. Without that... you just seem unhappy that I don't agree with you. It may very well be a win/win in your eyes.
Unfortunately, I am stuck using my own eyes and I'm unable to directly understand what's in your brain ("your eyes").In my eyes, I did "enter into communion" but I was not empowered by any wisdom.
Not only that, but I have never seen anyone show any sort of wisdom that would be classed as "Godlike."
I just don't see any advantage.If those who are "in communion" have so much more wisdom...
why do they have the same problems?
why do they have the same fears?
why do they have the same propensity to hurt others?
why do they not have an increased ability to help others?
...if these things (and others) were actually present... then I would agree with you that there's something to "being in communion with Jesus."But, what we actually see... is that there's no difference at all.
There's nothing special about Christians. There's nothing special about non-Christians.
We're all people.
Some are smart, some not so much.
Some like to help others, some not so much.
Some are diabolical, some not so much.
But there's definitely no dividing line between "the good and the bad" by way of being "in communion."Therefore... by everything I actually see with my own eyes... there is no additional wisdom granted by being in communion with "the One."
If you can show otherwise, though. Please do, I'd be very interested in learning about it. That would depend on what God is actually like, of course.
But... let's assume that God is what He's generally espoused to be... all loving, all caring... that sort of thing.Then, no, it would not be better to attempt to do things myself. If Jesus actually existed and actually was a path to God in such a good way... then yes, I would devote myself to Jesus.
I look for such a thing all over. Not just Jesus even, but everywhere.
That's why I keep asking you to show me a beneficial difference that is actually uniquely caused by Jesus... if such a thing existed I would immediately start to follow Jesus.The same way that if anyone could show such a thing coming from any source I would immediately start to follow that source. I think human society should seek out benefits wherever possible.
If a Creator existed, and He is beneficial to us... then I think the population should be encouraged to seek Him out and have communion with Him.Even if the Creator does not exist... but it can be shown that having communion with Him is beneficial anyway (some strange placebo effect, maybe?) then I would still say we should be encouraged to have communion with Him.I don't have a problem with a Creator existing or not.
All I care about is the human population being able to connect with beneficial ideas.Currently, "communion with God" seems to be beneficial for many people. I encourage those people to continue having their communion with God. (Regardless of whether or not He exists or even if we can know whether or not He exists.)However... "communion with God" does not seem to be beneficial for all people. Some of those people are like me. I need something more than a feeling in order to devote myself towards a serious life-long idea. Communing with God doesn't add any benefits to me. But I can receive those same benefits from other sources. So... I seek out those other sources.That's what people need to do.
Be honest with yourself and understand if you're actually finding the benefits you need from doing what you're doing.
If so... great! Continue in that direction.
If not... try something else. No one's going to send you to Hell for seeking love. That's just juvenile.

What does the evidence say in regards to the progress of humanity?There are good things and bad things.
So far, we have managed to avoid a global war for nearly 70 years, though the jury is still out on whether or not we can avoid one forever. Some would say that we need God to save us from ourselves. Others would argue that the ideas in religion itself have added fuel to the wars. You bring up some good points, however. And I can't add to that or hope to influence you to think any differently. Quite honestly, I sometimes feel as if posting here at EvC is a form of therapy as I wrestle with my own inner demons and try and understand my beliefs and values---often by reading what I post and seeing how far short I miss the proverbial mark. Some would argue that it is not we who should be in our own drivers seat. The bumper sticker that says "God Is My Copilot" has it wrong. In essence, my belief is that weare Gods Copilot. Thus, the schematic would look more like this--at least ideally.Phat--->accepts Jesus...asks Him into heart and mind.Thus...Jesus--->Phat---->Love and other virtues.
Stile---->Love and other virtues. In essence, He would go through you.We know that each schematic works best for us...individually. Thus it is of no priority to attempt to convert you. What we need to figure out is how Jesus works through me...if in fact it is so.Edited by Phat, : added features! Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

I don't know. I'm not very good at history. Nothing wrong with that.
Personally, I post at EvC because I think it's an interesting subject. I'm basically just fighting boredom
I post for my own selfish reasons... because I want to, it's fun for me, and I like to test out ideas I have about certain philosophical things and see how they stand up to scrutiny.Sometimes I like to pretend I'm a Crusader of Justice who posts to defend Truth in all it's forms!!
And, well, other times I like to pretend I'm a ninja... so take that for what it's worth Fair enough.
It's my contention that we all need to sort out for ourselves the best way to go about this sort of thing.
I don't really have a specific view on how other people should do it. I think they should do whatever works for them... the only issues would arise if there was something obviously "not working" for them. Then, perhaps... they are on the wrong path.That said, I do hold a few ideas rather strongly:

• There is no one single way (Phat's ideas about Jesus or Stile's ideas about life or anyone elses ideas) that will work for everybody. People are simply too varied in their conceptual ideas.
• No one has the right to tell me how to go about these things unless they can show their ideas to have actual, realistic merit. (This is just a personal-confidence/stand-up-for-yourself sort of idea)

Unfortunately... it is my belief that you are the only one who can figure this out.
I don't know that for sure... maybe someone else can instruct you how to live your life and you'll be okay with it? I don't know... such a thing just seems counter-productive to me.My only advice is this (off the top of my head, anyway):

• You will feel healthier (or "more comfortable") if you remove all strains/worries from your mind
• Some strains/worries are just a part of life. Learn to live with them.
  ("Grant me the courage to change the things I can
  Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot
  Grant me wisdom to know the difference.")
• Be honest with yourself and attempt to identify your worries
  • If they deal with family/friends or work or finances or other mundane aspects of the world... make what small steps you can, when you can, in order to lessen their impact. No need to try to "stop them"... if you can, then you will as you take the small steps in that direction. If you can't... then at least you'll know you did all you can by taking the small steps anyway.
  • If they deal with just you (and possibly "the supernatural")... then the only thing you can possibly change (if you want to change anything) is you. Again... take whatever small steps you can to go in the direction you feel is best.
• Be honest with yourself and attempt to identify your personal priorities
  • If they deal with mundane aspects of the world... make what small steps you can, when you can, in order to increase their impact.
  • If they deal with just you (and possibly "the supernatural")... then the only thing you can possibly change is you. Again... take whatever small steps you can to go in the direction you feel is best.
• Being honest with yourself about your fears/priorities are the most important steps. If you're not honest at these steps... then all the decisions you make will be in the wrong direction for adding comfort to your mind.

In general... I don't think it matters if Jesus "actually works through you" or not.
I think it matters whether or not Phat thinks it matters if Jesus is involved or not.If it's your personal belief that Jesus "has to be real!" or "really does help me!"... and you don't mind not having the physical proof for such a thing... then roll with it! Move past the junction of indecision and start getting to the actual results.If it's your personal belief that maybe there's "something a little off" about this whole Jesus thing... and that something is really picking at your brain... then figure it out! You'll never be able to move past the junction of indecision until you deal with your doubts.The important factor isn't whether or not you deal with Jesus.
The important factor is whether or not you do what you need to do in order to get past the junction of indecision so that you can start living your life in a way that feels "freeing" and "not constrained" and "at peace" and all that bullshit

Some critics call it free will. To choose to surrender to a higher power or not. Others would argue that the action is not one of surrender so much as it is one of communion. I can't argue with this one. If I did, I would be crossing the line in discussion towards that of persuasion...I guess we could determine what it is that either works or does not work. thus--again--the schematics. Yours: And mine: The summation of our discussion as to whether Jesus is indeed the only way is based entirely on the agreeable idea that it is an individual decision and never one of contrived agreement...be it at church or be it at a discussion board.For me, much depends on the belief as to what Jesus represents and how relevant this flow(Spirit/Vibe) is to my life and my actions and my responsibilities/capabilities which I already have versus which I may need help with. Agreed. The important factor is whether you are honest with yourself.