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Author Topic:   GMOs = The Smart Future of Food
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 84 (725583)
04-28-2014 6:03 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
04-28-2014 4:31 PM


Re: Regulations
T12 writes:
I have to agree that the rule of law was followed.
T12 writes:
Not one instance that has been put forth of Monsanto's egregious behavior has been substantiated, rather you say, "Well, they acted within the law, but the law should be changed."
Actually that "Well" is stating your own position rather than mine.
My own position is that simply being lawful and profitable is not sufficient reason for me to deny that a behavior is egregious and wrong. I'm not sure which of my posts suggest anything different.
Just as a single example, it was perfectly legal, and in at least the short term final interest of the shareholders to advocate against 'GMO free' labeling. I still, rightly in my opinion, have a dim view of those actions.
Let me suggest to you that if your intention is not to defend Monsanto, your posts create a different impression than you intend. I would also request that you take an introspective look at your OP. Regardless of whether you do that, for my part I won't rehashing complaints about Monsanto that I've already aired.
NoNukes writes:
The complaints about the testing is that it is insufficient, and concentrated on the short term.
T12 writes:
In regards to this, I would appreciate some evidence that this is actually the case.
My comments were addressed to the six or seven step process for approval you listed.
although with their main product (Round-up) having the patent run out
I ought to be more forgiving?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-28-2014 4:31 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 84 (725605)
04-29-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
04-28-2014 4:31 PM


Re: Regulations
These are other topics that are also being researched on these products by academia.
So someone who feels differently about things than you might reasonably have the opinion that further testing is needed.
And these products are tested against non-target species, so the danger to other creatures within the biosphere is known for these products, such as the minimal risk with the Monarch butterfly. Unless you have some evidence of an outbreak of Bt poisoning in non-target species?
Against some non-target species. Yes.
One might reasonably hold the opinion that Vioxx and Thalidomide should have been vetted more fully before they were approved by the FDA. No, I don't know of any other affected non-target species, but one might also reasonably hold the opinion that the burden of proof for proving no harm lies with Dupont and Monsanto and not the public. And one might also disagree with the whether a minor affect on monarch butterflies should be taken more seriously.
The point is that one might reasonably disagree with the idea that GMOs have been proven to be safe enough without having to be called a creationist thinker. I am not a biologist, but that does not mean that I should want the safety of GMOs investigated under an adversarial process.
District attorneys are lawyers and their goal should be two find the truth. We should expect that they would not lie. But I still want my own lawyer standing next to me when I'm being tried for subversive speech.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 04-28-2014 4:31 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 78 of 84 (725620)
04-29-2014 3:35 PM


The Corporate Control of the Modern Food Supply
It's corporate control of the food supply
Either play their game or starve and die.
It started small and no one cared,
But give it timethey'll own the air.
You're bickering here 'bout legalities;
They're questioning their mortalities,
The trouble's not with laws and rules,
Those are shades to blind the fools.
Our welfare now is in the hands,
Of a few corrupted businessmen
Who'll drown the world to make a dime
And blame the poor the whole damn time!
We all believed their was no Flood
But they'll give us one of our own blood.
When the price of seeds is far too high,
You'll have no choice but to starve and die.
All democratically-elected world governments need to confiscate the GMO production capacities, rights, and powers from the corporations that currently hold them. They need to fund and perform the research with taxes and release the products of their research for free to the public.
The health and well-being of the world food supply is a matter of public welfare and should not be left to the whim of the corporate monster.
Let's not be fools: their interests are not ours.

Love your enemies!

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2014 5:10 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 79 of 84 (725625)
04-29-2014 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Jon
04-29-2014 3:35 PM


Re: The Corporate Control of the Modern Food Supply
It's corporate control of the food supply
So, I've got you down as pro-GMO, anti-Monsanto/Dupont. Is that about right?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Jon, posted 04-29-2014 3:35 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Jon, posted 04-29-2014 11:28 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 84 (725637)
04-29-2014 11:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by NoNukes
04-29-2014 5:10 PM


Re: The Corporate Control of the Modern Food Supply
So, I've got you down as pro-GMO, anti-Monsanto/Dupont. Is that about right?
Of course. Humans have been innovating methods to increase crop yields from the moment we dropped our first seed.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by NoNukes, posted 04-29-2014 5:10 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
frako
Member (Idle past 326 days)
Posts: 2932
From: slovenija
Joined: 09-04-2010


(4)
Message 81 of 84 (725652)
04-30-2014 1:57 AM


Europe to America: Your Apples Are Hazardous
these are the kind of thing im afraid of, as pertaining to the safety of GMO's.
Now i know this isnt a GMO issue but a preservative issue, but it shows how american safety standards are lacking.
Europe allows for 0,1 parts per million of the chemical DPA the US allows 10 parts per million 100 times more.
Now the EU said just prove to us that this chemical does not brake down in to carcinogenus substances as there is clearly a possibility that it does and your fine we will buy your apples. And You could not do it.
Us way of providing safety for consumers: yea you can sell it but if we find out its harmful you'l have to stop.
EU way of providing safety for consumers: Um that looks like it could be harmful, show me that it isnt and you can sell it.
Personally when we are dealing with products that millions will consume, it would be better to go with the European model don't you think.

Christianity, One woman's lie about an affair that got seriously out of hand
What are the Christians gonna do to me ..... Forgive me, good luck with that.

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 08-28-2014 11:49 AM frako has not replied

  
Tempe 12ft Chicken
Member (Idle past 355 days)
Posts: 438
From: Tempe, Az.
Joined: 10-25-2012


Message 82 of 84 (735945)
08-28-2014 11:49 AM
Reply to: Message 81 by frako
04-30-2014 1:57 AM


Oh? Only these products have risk?
The Case of the Poison Lanape
Above is a link to a tale about the Poison Lanape. This was a potato bred through conventional cross breeding and was allowed to be released on the market because there is no restrictions for organic, non-GMO foods to be tested for toxins. Well, the potatoes had an increase in the level of Solanine, found in all plants from the family Solanaceae, which made them toxic to human beings. From the article:
Fred Gould, Entomologist writes:
He used Lenapes as an example of risk and uncertainty. Often, people frame genetically modified plants as this huge open question a giant uncertainty, of the sort we’ve never dealt with before. There’s this idea that GM plants are uniquely at risk of producing unexpected side effects, and that we have no way of knowing what those effects would be until average consumers start getting sick, Gould told me. But neither of those things is really true. Conventional breeding, the simple act of crossing one existing plant with another, can produce all sorts of unexpected and dangerous results.
So, there is a risk no matter what because most plants use toxins as a means of pest resistance, and whether GM or conventional, a possibility exists of increasing these toxins to unsafe levels. As per pesticides, if the US is below the level that science says (Not the EU or the US, nor any other country), then why should we worry about this product which has been used since 1947 with no known cases of illness stemming from these products? Plus, there was a review on these product in 1997 which came back saying:
FDA writes:
EPA said in a statement that its evaluation in 1997 found "reasonable certainty of no harm"
Also, why are you not washing your apples prior to eating them? These products are only able to be harvested once a year in the fall and this means they must store for long periods of time to be available. DPA helps make this possible and washing would remove any residue from the outside of the apple.
I don't think the European model is successful because it places a hamper of timidity on products that, whether organic, GM, or artificial, carry some risk inherently. Even water is toxic in high enough doses. According to the best science at the time, 10 ppm is an acceptable level for this pesticide residue. Should they complete their 15 year review, yes, but that doesn't remove the previous scientific research from the journals. Plus, even the member states of the EU are not happy with the political blockade that has arisen against GM foods and want to make it a country based decision, instead of a Union. And claiming the FDA doesn't require safety testing is incorrect on food additives, otherwise why do additives and preservatives have labels from the FDA such as, "Generally regarded as safe" or "Ban" or "PD(Petition Denied)". I agree our supplement industry operates on a method of harm must come from the products before the government can act (something that should be changed), but food additives do require approval, which has testing that goes along with it.
This reminds me of the argument from Anti-GMO groups that GMOs are not tested for safety. Stating this while there is a regulation process that requires 10 years and 40 million dollars to get a product approved seems incorrect, especially while organics can simply be released and see what happens. Otherwise, how did they set the standard for PPM for DPA use on apples, if there is no regulation and testing?
Group asks U.S. to examine pesticide-coated apples banned in Europe
FDA Food Additives
BTW, I do agree that the FDA needs to be given back some authority that has consistently been stripped from it by Congress (especially in regards to supplements). Without authority, no one is held accountable, but I do think they do their best with the resources they have. Hence why we do not hear of food borne illness outbreaks every day.
Edited by Tempe 12ft Chicken, : No reason given.

The theory of evolution by cumulative natural selection is the only theory we know of that is in principle capable of explaining the existence of organized complexity. - Richard Dawkins
Creationists make it sound as though a 'theory' is something you dreamt up after being drunk all night. - Issac Asimov
If you removed all the arteries, veins, & capillaries from a person’s body, and tied them end-to-endthe person will die. - Neil Degrasse Tyson
What would Buddha do? Nothing! What does the Buddhist terrorist do? Goes into the middle of the street, takes the gas, *pfft*, Self-Barbecue. The Christian and the Muslim on either side are yelling, "What the Fuck are you doing?" The Buddhist says, "Making you deal with your shit. - Robin Williams

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by frako, posted 04-30-2014 1:57 AM frako has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-29-2014 5:57 PM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 304 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 83 of 84 (736008)
08-29-2014 5:57 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Tempe 12ft Chicken
08-28-2014 11:49 AM


Re: Oh? Only these products have risk?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Tempe 12ft Chicken, posted 08-28-2014 11:49 AM Tempe 12ft Chicken has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by Omnivorous, posted 08-29-2014 8:47 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3983
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.0


Message 84 of 84 (736018)
08-29-2014 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Dr Adequate
08-29-2014 5:57 PM


Re: Oh? Only these products have risk?
Good point--it's time we took a closer look at those plant breeders.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Dr Adequate, posted 08-29-2014 5:57 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
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