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Author Topic:   Perceptions of Reality v3
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 1 of 40 (726686)
05-10-2014 2:15 PM


Building on previous versions ... and attempting brevity () ...
To begin with, I don't think it is possible in the slightest for two people to have exactly the same set of beliefs and knowledge, we are all a little different from anyone else and sometimes a lot different from some others. We are limited in our ability to understand by our ability to understand -- our personal worldview.
Let me open up the discussion a bit by first considering the whole playing field of human knowledge and perceptions of reality, first in very general terms:
science (click) is what we know about reality from objective evidence and the scientific method. philosophy (click) is what we think about reality based on logic that is internally consistent faith (click) is what we believe about reality without objectivity or logic. These concepts can be wrong, however it is much harder to determine if a concept is correct than to determine if it is wrong, so this leaves us with concepts we think are correct versus concepts we know to be wrong.
Science tests concepts against the objective evidence to eliminate ideas that don't match reality as it is known by objective evidence, but it can't prove that the concepts are correct representations of reality.
Philosophy can be based on our knowledge of reality and it can consider hypothetical concepts that cannot be tested by scientific methods, they can only be tested for self consistency. Philosophical concepts that are contradictory to our knowledge of reality, however, are just as invalidated as scientific concepts so invalidated.
Faith involves concepts that include, but are not limited to, concepts of god/s, and there is no known test of beliefs, other than that any belief concepts that are contradictory to our knowledge of reality are just as invalidated as scientific concepts so invalidated.
If I were to draw a picture of this it would be something like this:
If I were to place over this the worldview knowledge of science, philosophy and faith of a YEC (young earth creationist) it would look something like this:
It is silly to consider scientific concepts at odds with reality.
It is irrational to consider philosophical concepts at odds with reality.
It is delusional to maintain belief in concepts at odds with reality.
Enjoy
Edited by Admin, : Minor wordsmithing.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Faith, posted 05-11-2014 8:01 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 4 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2014 8:21 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 7 by Dogmafood, posted 05-11-2014 8:44 AM RAZD has replied
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 05-12-2014 11:27 AM RAZD has replied

  
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Message 2 of 40 (726688)
05-11-2014 7:41 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Perceptions of Reality v3 thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 3 of 40 (726691)
05-11-2014 8:01 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-10-2014 2:15 PM


faith (click) is what we believe about reality without objectivity or logic.
This is a false definition of CHRISTIAN faith, whatever other kind of faith you may have in mind. Christian faith is faith in the God of the Bible and in His revelation. He's the Creator of everything including science and reason. Whatever truly derives from Him is true, objective and logical.

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 Message 5 by AZPaul3, posted 05-11-2014 8:24 AM Faith has replied
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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 4 of 40 (726693)
05-11-2014 8:21 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-10-2014 2:15 PM


Is that right? Aren't science and faith both subsets of philosophy?

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Replies to this message:
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 05-11-2014 9:08 AM AZPaul3 has replied
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 Message 21 by Pressie, posted 05-12-2014 5:32 AM AZPaul3 has replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 5 of 40 (726694)
05-11-2014 8:24 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
05-11-2014 8:01 AM


Articles of faith, M'lady. They serve as evidence of RAZD's point.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 6 of 40 (726697)
05-11-2014 8:35 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by AZPaul3
05-11-2014 8:24 AM


Not in the history of Christendom are they dismissed as articles of faith as you and he slightingly mean the term. "Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen." I think it was Athanasius who said "I know because I believe" or words to that effect, and when I first read that I knew exactly what he meant. In other words faith in the true God is a door to true knowledge, not the groundless thing unbelievers make of it. So you're wrong. Sorry.
ABE: Google seems to suggest it was Anselm, not Athanasius.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 7 of 40 (726698)
05-11-2014 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by RAZD
05-10-2014 2:15 PM


Reality can be swayed by faith
The thing about faith is that sometimes it can be validated by reality even though there was no objective or reasonable support for the faith beforehand. This is most obvious in the case of some truly unlikely military victories such as the English victory at Agincourt in 1415 when 6000 English troops defeated 30000 Frenchmen. Hannibal's victory against the Romans at Cannae in 216 bc or the Israeli victory in the 6 day war in 1967.
Sometimes reality develops in complete opposition to logic and reason.
Edited by ProtoTypical, : Cannae

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 8 of 40 (726701)
05-11-2014 9:01 AM
Reply to: Message 3 by Faith
05-11-2014 8:01 AM


faith (click) is what we believe about reality without objectivity or logic.
This is a false definition of CHRISTIAN faith, whatever other kind of faith you may have in mind. Christian faith is faith in the God of the Bible and in His revelation. He's the Creator of everything including science and reason. Whatever truly derives from Him is true, objective and logical.
And yet you believe this is true without objective evidence or logic that it is true. This is not, of it's own, a bad thing.
It is when you believe things that are known to be false, like a young earth, where the evidence of the earth being over 4.5 billion years old is massive, that such beliefs become delusional.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 9 of 40 (726702)
05-11-2014 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by AZPaul3
05-11-2014 8:21 AM


Is that right? Aren't science and faith both subsets of philosophy?
Perhaps, certainly they are subsets of human thought.
Science is like a refinement of philosophy, a distillation that focuses on what we can know from objective evidence.
Faith is like an extrapolation of philosophy, an expansion of thoughts of what may be outside the natural realm of objective evidence.
So I could be wrong in thinking that philosophy is concerned with logic and internally consistent concepts and would need another word for that to use instead. Do you have one?

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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AZPaul3
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Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(1)
Message 10 of 40 (726704)
05-11-2014 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by Faith
05-11-2014 8:35 AM


Of course, they are articles of faith. They are beliefs that sustain your faith. And to sustain that faith you believe these articles to be true regardless of the lack of evidence. You cannot hold a belief in a god for which there is no evidence outside your own head if you do not have the faith within your head that such exists. Nothing derogatory there. Simple definition.
I know because I believe.
An excellent definition of faith. To "know" based upon a belief sans evidence.
But this is going sideways to RAZD's thread and I do not want to derail it so soon. Maybe later.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 11 of 40 (726706)
05-11-2014 9:20 AM
Reply to: Message 7 by Dogmafood
05-11-2014 8:44 AM


Re: Reality can be swayed by faith
Just a small quibble
... unlikely military victories such as the English victory at Agincourt in 1415 ...
Battle of Agincourt - Wikipedia
It was the introduction and massive use of the English longbow that gave them the victory. The longbow shot further and had enough power to pierce the French armor.
Certainly the faith the French had in winning the battle proved to be wrong.
I am reminded of the Dylan song "With God on Our Side"
http://www.metrolyrics.com/...our-side-lyrics-bob-dylan.html

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.2


(2)
Message 12 of 40 (726707)
05-11-2014 9:47 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by RAZD
05-11-2014 9:08 AM


How many philosophers can fit on the head of a pin?
Do you have one?
That's the problem with philosophies. They do not have to be logical or internally consistent and even if some are does not insure they are correct, whatever that means.
What does one call a logical, internally consistent philosophy to differentiate it from those that are not? I don't know.
Over all, however, I think a good word for philosophy is "useless". But that doesn't help your exploration here. Sorry.

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Dogmafood
Member (Idle past 348 days)
Posts: 1815
From: Ontario Canada
Joined: 08-04-2010


(1)
Message 13 of 40 (726709)
05-11-2014 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by RAZD
05-11-2014 9:20 AM


Re: Reality can be swayed by faith
It was the introduction and massive use of the English longbow that gave them the victory
We both agree that there is always a reasonable explanation after the fact. I guess my point was that it is not always delusional to maintain beliefs in concepts that are at odds with reason.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 14 of 40 (726710)
05-11-2014 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 12 by AZPaul3
05-11-2014 9:47 AM


Re: How many philosophers can fit on the head of a pin?
Good points again.
Perhaps what I should do is discard the labels and use just the definitions proposed
Inner core: is what we know about reality from objective evidence and the scientific method.
middle layer: is what we think about reality based on logic that is internally consistent
outer layer: is what we believe about reality without objectivity or logic.
And think about the layers in terms of the confidence we can have in their validity.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 15 of 40 (726712)
05-11-2014 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by Dogmafood
05-11-2014 9:50 AM


Re: Reality can be swayed by faith
We both agree that there is always a reasonable explanation after the fact. I guess my point was that it is not always delusional to maintain beliefs in concepts that are at odds with reason.
At odds with logic, untested hypothesis, yes
At odds with theory, tested hypothesis, yes
At odds with facts, not so much.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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