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Author Topic:   Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 655 of 1000 (728146)
05-24-2014 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 654 by Modulous
05-24-2014 7:15 AM


Re: King James slandered
I can't think of anybody in the 4th-6th Centuries that had power, money, education and motivation enough to make it, maintain it perhaps purchase it - other than Christians.
But this makes no sense. This is one manuscript found in the 19th century that is dated to the 4th century despite the fact that they have no evidence for that other than subjective assessments of the style of the writing, it differs in many ways from the thousands of manuscripts on which the KJV was based, it suffers from an amazing array of corrections of all kinds, and according to Dean Burgon was rejected by the Church as a corrupted text, which he attributed to early gnostic tampering.
As for the idea that it could be a forgery there was a huge flap about that soon after it was discovered, as a Greek paleographer wrote a letter to one of the British newspapers claiming it was his own work. Not a forgery exactly, he was making it as a gift, but not an early authentic manuscript as was being claimed for it. There was an exchange of letters in that paper that went on for a couple of years about it, others of course calling him a liar and so on. Nobody bothered to check his many references to people involved who could have given support to his story. It's an odd story, which raises many questions, but as I've become aware of it the man sounds quite sincere, he certainly had nothing to gain by his claims, had the skill for the job, was a very accomplished paleographer who in fact had the Greek original of the Shepherd of Hermas that was found in the Codex Sinaiticus ms and many other clues to the possibly authenticity of his claims. The odd things are that this is an "Alexandrian" thpe of text and the Greek monastery where he claims to have done the work and the monastery where it ended up as well, would have used the Textus Receptus rather than the Alexandrian. Also it's very odd that there should be so many corrections in a manuscript he was purportedly making for the Czar of Russia. Nevertheless his story, odd as it is, does seem to hold together as far as it goes. And when you consider that there would have been people who wanted to see the KJV overthrown or at leas cast into doubt, which this manuscript in many ways did accomplish, that would explain why he was so ferociously criticized. Rather similar to the King James story.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 7:15 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 666 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 11:44 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 681 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-25-2014 6:49 PM Faith has replied
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 Message 722 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2014 6:09 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 656 of 1000 (728149)
05-24-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 654 by Modulous
05-24-2014 7:15 AM


Re: King James slandered
It's a good job I'm not relying on his biographers then isn't it?
But let me guess that you were clued to this quote by an anti-King-James source, and since you give no context or even an accessible link, it certainly looks like a put-up to me. He is describing the torture of a person considered to be a witch, that he apparently witnessed or knew about, as part of his investigation into demonology. The copy I found of the book either doesn't have that passage or I just can't find it with the words from your quote, but in any case the book is basically about everything known about demons that he could put together, a scholarly study by a king. In that passage he is interested in the fact that the person wouldn't recant even under torture. There's nothing at all to warrant your accusation of sadism.
Back to Codex Sinaiticus you obviously know nothing about its story.
It wasn't known to scholars. But since Biblical scholarship really started to kick off in the 19th Century, I fail to see your point.
It was found at a monastery, in one of the largest libraries of ancient texts in the world
It wasn't known to ANYBODY, not just scholars. If Tischendorf, who claimed to have found it, can be trusted, it was in a wastebasket being used for fire kindling and he rescued it. Supposedly it had been in the monastery for years without anybody even looking at it. This is one of the clues that it was recognized as corrupt.
Tischendorf's story is doubted even by people who accept the ms. as authentic. What the real story is who knows, but the whole business is very shady it seems to me.
Anyway your remark about scholarship just getting started is irrelevant. The manuscript wasn't available at all to anyone for centuries at least, even if it is ancient.
Obviously you know nothing about any of this, you're making it all up as you go.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 654 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 7:15 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 659 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 6:35 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 657 of 1000 (728153)
05-24-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 653 by Modulous
05-24-2014 7:04 AM


Re: King James book on Demonology
The man goes to a trial of witches, either witnesses or hears about this torture, reports it in his book and is called a sadist by someone five hundred years later.
King James believed that demon-possessed people could do terrible damage in the world and should be punished. We wouldn't see it his way even if we believe in such phenomena, which I do. So I'm sure I'll be appalled at what he was able to accept as reasonable punishment, but I still think you are way out of line to criticize a man from a time so utterly different from yours, who probably shared his views with many of his day, and did absolutely nothing himself to participate in these things.
One thing I want to find out more about is a report that he'd been supernaturally attacked himself and this was behind his interest in witches. He was a king you know and he had enemies. The Gunpowder Plot was an attempt by Catholic conspirators to kill him and blow up Parliament, which is still sort of celebrated as Guy Fawkes day in your country isn't it?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 660 of 1000 (728183)
05-24-2014 7:51 PM
Reply to: Message 659 by Modulous
05-24-2014 6:35 PM


Re: King James slandered
Supposedly it had been in the monastery for years without anybody even looking at it.
I'm sure there are books in the Vatican that have not been looked at for years. I'm not sure what you think your point is.
...
Anyway your remark about scholarship just getting started is irrelevant. The manuscript wasn't available at all to anyone for centuries at least, even if it is ancient.
But what difference does that make?
I was answering your remark that scholarship was only getting started in the 19th century which implied that the Codex had been available only not studied. You also said it was only unknown to scholars. I pointed out that it wasn't known to anyone, it had just been "discovered" and nobody had known about it at all, also that the fact that it was supposedly so old and yet in such good shape implies that it hadn't been used much in all those centuries, which could be attributed to its having been known to be corrupted. So you were wrong about its having been known to anyone at all. You clearly knew nothing of the history of it. You also didn't seem to know it contradicts the main body of Greek texts, kept saying "Christians" had "tinkered" with it. You just didn't know a thing about any of it. So you tell me what point you were trying to make, because whatever it was it was false. All I was doing was pointing out you were wrong about the facts.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 659 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 6:35 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 662 by Modulous, posted 05-24-2014 8:21 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 663 of 1000 (728191)
05-24-2014 9:43 PM
Reply to: Message 662 by Modulous
05-24-2014 8:21 PM


Re: the history of the codex
Just endlessly evasive aren't you. I get so tired of the EvC runaround. Maybe I'll come back to your codex song and dance, the slippery sidestep, maybe not.
As for King James I need to read the book on demonology. There is no doubt he's been viciously slandered but I hadn't run across anything about that book so I need to catch up on that. Offhand I find it hard to condemn a man who otherwise lived a very good life and was the target of slander by unscrupulous enemies, just because of his fear of witches that led him to horrible measures against them. Elizabeth 1 also prosecuted witches, it's not like he was alone. Of course it must be denounced but you leave no room for complexities in a life lived in such a different time. And like everybody else at EvC you set yourself up as his judge as if you yourself are just SO superior.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 665 of 1000 (728195)
05-24-2014 11:27 PM
Reply to: Message 664 by NoNukes
05-24-2014 11:08 PM


Re: the history of the codex
Not if he'd lived the same otherwise blameless life.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 670 of 1000 (728206)
05-25-2014 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 668 by NoNukes
05-25-2014 12:47 PM


Re: the history of the codex
You could read the blog post I linked to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 668 by NoNukes, posted 05-25-2014 12:47 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 671 by NoNukes, posted 05-25-2014 1:46 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 672 of 1000 (728211)
05-25-2014 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 671 by NoNukes
05-25-2014 1:46 PM


Re: King James I
So here's the blog post I did on this subject a while back, featuring a talk by a pastor who had done some research into King James I, as well as the transcript of the talk.
He based most of it on a book by a Stephen Coston who did years of research, and here is something Coston wrote on the bad scholarship on King James that he discovered in his research.
And here is a site where all James' writings can be read:
King James I of England (VI of Scotland) Page
ABE: At that site you can read about the history of the concept of the Divine Right of Kings for which James is so frequently vilified. It explains:
By the times of King James, the Popes of Rome had been usurping the rights of kings for centuries on end, placing them under interdict and causing many troubles, e.g., releasing Catholics from obeying the laws of the land, AND TELLING THEM THAT IT IS A "MERITORIOUS" THING TO KILL A HERETICK KING. IN FACT, JESUITS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS TRIED TO KILL KING JAMES IN THE GUNPOWDER PLOT OF 1605. King James wrote forcefully about the Roman Catholic church's tendency to usurp power, kill kings, and disrupt kingdoms. The following is excerpted from, "King James has a message that Rome does not want you to hear."
And here's that site Mod posted of the book on Demonology he wrote:
Books: daemonologie (sorted by popularity) - Project Gutenberg
Yes James I and his predecessor Elizabeth I did chase the Dissenters to the Anglican Church out of England. A sad chapter in history but it doesn't mean they weren't good Christians themselves, which they were, and it doesn't justify heaping slander on the man in any case. We have, after all, made peace with the Anglicans since then.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 671 by NoNukes, posted 05-25-2014 1:46 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 673 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2014 4:52 PM Faith has replied
 Message 677 by Modulous, posted 05-25-2014 6:18 PM Faith has replied
 Message 696 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2014 1:36 AM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 674 of 1000 (728215)
05-25-2014 5:00 PM
Reply to: Message 673 by Theodoric
05-25-2014 4:52 PM


Re: King James I
I judge a book by its credibility and its sources, not by whatever you can find to say against its author, especially his associations which may or may not say anything about him.. I accept even some writings by Catholics, imagine that. He seems to have done careful research on King James. Judge his research, not the man.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 673 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2014 4:52 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 675 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2014 5:18 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 676 of 1000 (728218)
05-25-2014 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 675 by Theodoric
05-25-2014 5:18 PM


Re: King James I
When I first looked for the book I found it at Amazon for over $200 so no I haven't read it. I see it's now available elsewhere, I suppose a reprint of some sort, for a reasonable price, but right now my book budget is shot.
The talk by Stringer on my blog is based on that book and he makes good points about original sources. Since I haven't read it I can't judge it with any finality but it sounds like it has a solid basis in original documents and I would like to read it.
ABE: Forgive me if I must add that since James was at loggerheads with the Pope, and the papacy and the Jesuits are known for their attempts to destroy Protestants one way or another, I'm rather predisposed toward the possibility that they are behind the smear campaign against him. If you read what I quoted above about why he was in favor of the Divine Right of Kings, and put it together with his writings against the papacy, plus the fact that there was a Catholic conspiracy to murder him and blow up the English Parliament, I dunno, looks to me like there's a Jesuitical rat in there somewhere. Coston is an Anglo-Catholic, a position way too pro-Catholic for me, but if he wrote the truth about James, more power to him -- or at least to his work. /ABE
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 675 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2014 5:18 PM Theodoric has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 679 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2014 6:41 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 678 of 1000 (728221)
05-25-2014 6:35 PM
Reply to: Message 677 by Modulous
05-25-2014 6:18 PM


Re: King James I
Actually I haven't found anything about his torturing anybody. Perhaps I'm preoccupied and missed it. So would you be so kind as to point me directly to what you are talking about? Thank you.
I guess you're in favor of the Pope running the world? Would like to see the Holy Roman Empire reinstated and all the nations of the world made subservient to him? That's what the flap between Protestantism and Catholicism is all about at root. If the Jesuits weren't out to undermine Protestant nations in order to reestablish the rule of the Pope over them all, we could live quite peaceably with them. But it was their determination to exterminate Protestantism that brought them under the severe laws of England. Bloody Mary had been a last straw, then the Protestants cracked down. But the Jesuits know how to bide their time and work behind the scenes. So now the UK has liberalized some of those old laws. They must think the wolf has changed his ways and now eats grass instead of Protestants -- and Jews and sometimes Muslims and others.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 680 of 1000 (728223)
05-25-2014 6:45 PM
Reply to: Message 679 by Theodoric
05-25-2014 6:41 PM


Re: King James I
I find his ARGUMENT credible, his REASONING, his reference to what he found in historical documents, what has been said about the book, who cares who he is? If you won't read Stringer's remarks I have no interest in talking to you further.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 683 of 1000 (728226)
05-25-2014 6:56 PM
Reply to: Message 681 by Dr Adequate
05-25-2014 6:49 PM


Re: King James slandered
I can't answer all the charges that I've seen answered elsewhere. You are going to go with the popular accounts anyway. The evidence is good for Simonides. The accusation by Tischendorf was exposed as a lie. Why don't you read the whole newspaper exchange. He's quite credible. All the accusations against him are lies. He was no forger, people who should know recognized him as an expert paleographer. But it would take too long to muster all this. Believe what you want. There really is a conspiracy that has the upper hand these days, but you'll never discover it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 681 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-25-2014 6:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 687 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-25-2014 7:46 PM Faith has replied
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 684 of 1000 (728227)
05-25-2014 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 682 by Theodoric
05-25-2014 6:51 PM


Re: King James I
The Pope had power over the kings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 682 by Theodoric, posted 05-25-2014 6:51 PM Theodoric has replied

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 688 of 1000 (728231)
05-25-2014 8:33 PM
Reply to: Message 687 by Dr Adequate
05-25-2014 7:46 PM


Re: Simonides
The reason they aren't excited about new finds with early dates is that there is no way to trust the dates, same as with Geological dating. They're determined by subjective assessment. And even if the dates were accurate, early dates don't prove authenticity, as Burgon argued against Sinaiticus -- apparently not accepting Simonides' claim. I personally find it a tad odd that there are all these new finds cropping up everywhere these days, meaning I think they could very well -- all or some -- be forgeries. But there is no evidence of that of course.
I do realize I have to get off the internet and start collecting evidence for a great variety of things. Wish I felt up to it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 687 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-25-2014 7:46 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
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