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Author Topic:   Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 691 of 1000 (728235)
05-25-2014 9:15 PM
Reply to: Message 683 by Faith
05-25-2014 6:56 PM


Simonides II
You are going to go with the popular accounts anyway.
Such as Sir Frederic George Kenyon, GBE, KCB, TD, FBA, FSA (15 January 1863 — 23 August 1952):
quote:
Since the year 1856 an ingenious Greek, named Constantine Simonides, had been creating a considerable sensation by producing quantities of Greek manuscripts professing to be of fabulous antiquity--such as a Homer in almost prehistoric style of writing, a lost Egyptian historian, a copy of St. Matthew's Gospel on papyrus, written fifteen years after the Ascension, and other portions of the New Testament dating from the first century. These productions enjoyed a short period of notoriety, and were then exposed as forgeries. Among the scholars concerned in the exposure was [Constantine] Tischendorf [the discoverer of the Sinaiticus manuscript--ed.]; and the revenge taken by Simonides was distinctly humorous. While stoutly maintaining the genuineness of his own wares, he admitted that he had written one manuscript which passed as being very ancient, and that was the Codex Sinaiticus, the discovery of which had been so triumphantly proclaimed by Tischendorf! The idea was ingenious, but it would not bear investigation. Apart from the internal evidence of the text itself, the variation in which no forger, however clever, could have invented, it was shown that Simonides could not have completed the task in the time which he professed to have taken, and that there was no such edition of the Greek Bible as that from which he professed to have copied it. This little cloud on the credit of the newly-discovered manuscript therefore rapidly passed away’ - Kenyon (1941, 4th ed.) Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts, London: Eyre & Spottiswoode, p. 130
Source
Or Reverend Frederick Henry Ambrose Scrivener, LL.D.
quote:
The claim of Simonides [was] to be the sole writer of a book which must have consisted when complete of about 730 leaves, or 1460 pages of very large size (Collation, &c. p. xxxii), and that too within the compass of eight or ten months...(He would have written about 20,000 separate uncial letters every day)...it is at all events quite plain, as well from internal considerations as from minute peculiarities in the writing, such as the frequent use of the apostrophus and of [another] mark on some sheets and their complete absence from others (Collation, &c. pp. xvi-xviii; xxxii; xxxvii), that at least two, and probably more, persons have been employed on the several parts of the volume
Source
And of course Falconer Madan, Books in manuscript : a short introduction to their study and use. With a Chapter on Records, London 1898, p. 124.
Your source?
Some guy with a radio show and who makes films with a explicit agenda of chronicling ' the chief evidence of our time that proves the word of God is true, and that Jesus Christ is coming soon'.
And maybe you rely on James Anson Farrer? Literary Forgeries (1907) , p 39 onwards
The accusation by Tischendorf was exposed as a lie.
I'm not sure that is true, is it?
Why don't you read the whole newspaper exchange.
The one where he claims that Tischendorf is essentially a buffoon because any paleographer could tell it was 19th Century? Why hasn't any paleographer said that in the last century, exactly? (Answer: Jesuits!)
quote:
Any person learned in palaeography ought to be able tell at once that it is a manuscript of the present age
And remember when someone who knew Simonides came forward?
quote:
It was there that I first became acquainted with Mr. Simonides, who assured me many times that he had lived in the sacred Russian monastery on the holy Mount Athos, and that the Reverend Deacon Benedict of that place was his uncle; also that this Benedict had sent him to study, and that on the conclusion of his studies he should return immediately to the holy mountain in order to become a monk, and afterwards a preacher, with other like things. But having attended, as I said before, for some few months only the lessons at Odessa , he was expelled from the school in consequence of his disorderly conduct, and for the same reason the Countess Etling and her brother, A. Sturtza, withdrew from him their patronage, and subsequently Mr. Simonides departed to Moscow .
‘‘About the year 1843, I, ...proceeded to the holy Mount Athos, and there entered the sacred Russian convent; and making particular inquiries there respecting Mr. Simonides, I was informed that he had indeed lived there, but had been dismissed in consequence of his disorderly and scandalous conduct, and that he had no relationship with the Reverend Benedict, excepting only that he was a fellow-countryman.

‘‘After the lapse of seven or eight years, Mr. Simonides gave out, both by word and by the press, that during the time that he resided in the Russian convent he had discovered, with the said Reverend Benedict, within the ancient monastery of the Russians, caverns containing many ancient parchment manuscripts, of which he had himself taken a quantity, including some of remarkable antiquity. These things being reported on the holy mountain, those who knew Mr. Simonides gave no hearing nor attention to such absurdities, but one of the principal persons of the holy mountain, the Superior of the sacred and greatest Laura, distinguished for learning and virtue, by name Hadgi Dionysius, induced by curiosity, wrote officially to our Hegoumenos of the sacred Russian convent, Gerasimus (who still worthily presides over it), asking him if there was any truth in Mr. Simonides' assertions respecting caverns and ancient books, &c. He, however, answered him officially by a monasterial note that these things were entirely without existence and without foundation.

‘‘After two or three years, however, Mr. Simonides came a second time, dressed in the European fashion, and I, reminding him of the words which he had spoken to me at Odessa ---- namely, that after he had finished his studies he intended to become a monk on the holy mountain, and ultimately a preacher ---- found him far from intending to carry out his professions, and engrossed by quite contrary ideas. As, however, our Hegoumenos would not allow him access to the library of our monastery, he went away to other monasteries on the holy mountain, that he might examine their libraries, but as in some of the said monasteries he mutilated many manuscript books, wickedly tearing out of them entire sheets, the entrance to many libraries of the said monasteries was forbidden him, and thus he departed from the holy mountain with disgrace.
Source for the last paragraph: Classical Victorians: Scholars, Scoundrels and Generals in Pursuit of Antiquity By Edmund Richardson. I found the preceding text in a more questionable setting
And didn't someone once ask the pertinent question of why did he not write around the holes in the paper, but rather it had the appearance that the holes were through the writing? You know, if he was not trying to create a forgery.
He was no forger, people who should know recognized him as an expert paleographer.
Such as? And why did he have the tools of a forger on him when arrested? Oh, because he liked the taste of iron. OK.
But it would take too long to muster all this.
I put the time in, it was quite entertaining.
There really is a conspiracy that has the upper hand these days, but you'll never discover it.
A secret Jesuit conspiracy, no less. Because: Chris Pinto, some guy.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 683 by Faith, posted 05-25-2014 6:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 693 by Faith, posted 05-25-2014 10:44 PM Modulous has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 312 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 692 of 1000 (728236)
05-25-2014 9:52 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by Faith
05-25-2014 9:08 PM


Re: Simonides
Sorry, I missed that you said they belonged to him. I didn't know he claimed to possess gospel fragments.
From the first half of the first century. You're really not interested?
But apparently he was exonerated of Tischendorf's charge, which I think was about the Shepherd of Hermas, by a reputable collector.
If there's one thing less convincing than another, it's a vague statement containing the words "apparently" and "I think" made by a Young Earth Creationist.
But if he was that clever a forger that's what needs to be proved.
What?
So he'd claim in public to have made Sinaiticus, why? To get back at Tischendorf?
Yes. Whether he was lying or telling the truth, we can tell that he was getting back at Tischendorf. Look at the letter he wrote.
You have thus a short and clear account of the Codex Simonideios, which Professor Tischendorf, when at Sinai, contrived, I know not how, to carry away [...] Any person learned in paleography ought to be able to tell at once that it is a MS of the present age.
You must permit me to express my sincere regret that, whilst the many valuable remains of antiquity in my possession are frequently attributed to my own hands, the one poor work of my youth is set down by a gentleman who enjoys a great reputation for learning as the earliest copy of the Sacred Scriptures.
This is a deliberate attack on Tischendorf --- he's saying that Tischendorf is definitely a damn fool and a charlatan and implying that he may be some sort of thief. And you can tell from his snide tone that he's thoroughly enjoying himself.
("Kallinikos", meanwhile, describes Tischendorf as "That master and pupil of all guile and wickedness"! and attacks not only his attainments in paleography but his ability to read the Greek language.)
We may then ask, of this man, Simonides, who was apparently lucky enough to find what may well be Matthew's own copy of Matthew, who was lucky enough to find what may be Homer's own copy of Homer --- was he also lucky enough that the one manuscript he did forge found its way, by the purest coincidence, into the hands of the one man whose reputation he particularly wished to destroy?
If we are to believe him, then here's what happened. Having never even heard of Tischendorf, Simonides dug a pit with no malice in the world, with no inkling of an intention that anyone should ever fall into it; then, after Simonides was wronged by Tischendorf, guess who falls into the pit that Simonides innocently dug? Why, if it isn't Tischendorf! How very fortuitous. But alas for Simonides, although "any person learned in paleography ought to be able to tell at once that it is a MS of the present age", poetic justice is thwarted by the fact that no "person learned in paleography" does expose Tischendorf's blunder, and so the noble and virtuous Simonides is forced to do it himself.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 693 of 1000 (728237)
05-25-2014 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 691 by Modulous
05-25-2014 9:15 PM


Re: Simonides II
I got a comment on one of my blog posts about Simonides, quoting Kenyon, and sent it on to Chris Pinto who has been researching the Simonides affair, and he wrote me an answer, HERE
Perhaps Pinto should have been more alert to the nature of the mss described?? ABE: But then I see that he goes on to quote someone who says the papyri Simonides had are identical to others already known.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 691 by Modulous, posted 05-25-2014 9:15 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 694 of 1000 (728238)
05-25-2014 10:45 PM
Reply to: Message 690 by Faith
05-25-2014 9:08 PM


an interesting blog
Sorry, I missed that you said they belonged to him. I didn't know he claimed to possess gospel fragments.
Pinto responded by repeating his normal tropes about Tischendorf that weren't really relevant and seemed equally unphased about the early/original Gospel of Matthew as you seem to have been.
Edited by Modulous, : faith beat me to mentioning her blog entry about it by one minute

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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 695 of 1000 (728239)
05-25-2014 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 693 by Faith
05-25-2014 10:44 PM


Re: Simonides II
But then I see that he goes on to quote someone who says the papyri Simonides had are identical to others already known.
Yes I imagine that is true. The Codex Mayerianus was in fact not what he said it was, and was designed to fool.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 696 of 1000 (728240)
05-26-2014 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 672 by Faith
05-25-2014 3:42 PM


Re: King James I
And here is a site where all James' writings can be read:
I note that you don't even bother to deal with any of the things we all know King James actually did. King James was not a good man who just happen to kill and torture dozen of people.
Yes James I and his predecessor Elizabeth I did chase the Dissenters to the Anglican Church out of England. A sad chapter in history but it doesn't mean they weren't good Christians themselves, which they were, and it doesn't justify heaping slander on the man in any case. We have, after all, made peace with the Anglicans since then.
Wrong. Persecuting other Christians does make you a bad man and not so great a Christian. But that's beside the point. With all of the smoke you are throwing up, you've pretty much agreed that torturing people into confessions and killing them is not the extent of King James evil.
releasing Catholics from obeying the laws of the land
Amusing. Don't you want to be released from obeying laws against discriminating against gays? Yet you condemn the Catholic church from freeing people from obeying a dictator's laws.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 672 by Faith, posted 05-25-2014 3:42 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 697 by Faith, posted 05-26-2014 2:34 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 697 of 1000 (728242)
05-26-2014 2:34 AM
Reply to: Message 696 by NoNukes
05-26-2014 1:36 AM


Re: King James I
Amusing. Don't you want to be released from obeying laws against discriminating against gays? Yet you condemn the Catholic church from freeing people from obeying a dictator's laws.
This bogus moral equivalence you all practice here is really insane. No distinctions made between murderers and God believers, or you'll bend over backwards to prove the God believers are murderers. And I guess you believe it.
ABE: It's hard to believe you would make an equivalence between Christians being free to refuse a service that would violate God's law, and Catholics being free to murder "heretic" kings on the authority of the Pope. Really unbelievable. When a person can make such a statement the world has gone truly mad. This is what you are comparing to Christians calling gay marriage a sin:
By the times of King James, the Popes of Rome had been usurping the rights of kings for centuries on end, placing them under interdict and causing many troubles, e.g., releasing Catholics from obeying the laws of the land, AND TELLING THEM THAT IT IS A "MERITORIOUS" THING TO KILL A HERETICK KING. IN FACT, JESUITS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS TRIED TO KILL KING JAMES IN THE GUNPOWDER PLOT OF 1605. King James wrote forcefully about the Roman Catholic church's tendency to usurp power, kill kings, and disrupt kingdoms. The following is excerpted from, "King James has a message that Rome does not want you to hear."
/ABE
I don't care if I'm released or not. I'm ready to see this whole ship sink if you want to know.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 696 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2014 1:36 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 700 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2014 10:45 AM Faith has replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 698 of 1000 (728244)
05-26-2014 4:20 AM
Reply to: Message 650 by Faith
05-24-2014 12:43 AM


Re: King James I of England
Coston defends the burning of "heretics"
Is burning heretics to death OK with you Faith?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 650 by Faith, posted 05-24-2014 12:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 706 by Faith, posted 05-26-2014 1:54 PM PaulK has replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9197
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 699 of 1000 (728247)
05-26-2014 7:43 AM
Reply to: Message 698 by PaulK
05-26-2014 4:20 AM


Re: King James I of England
His argument is that they weren't real Christians anyway, so what's the fuss.
All of these wonderful sources Faith finds seem to be self published. I wonder if Faith can get this yahoo to post here so we can have fun with him like the last guy.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 700 of 1000 (728257)
05-26-2014 10:45 AM
Reply to: Message 697 by Faith
05-26-2014 2:34 AM


Re: King James I
This bogus moral equivalence you all practice here is really insane. No distinctions made between murderers and God believers, or you'll bend over backwards to prove the God believers are murderers. And I guess you believe it.
Instead of telling us about murderers and God believers, because surely that does not describe all Catholics, why don't you tell us which laws of the land the Catholic Church said that their followers did not have to obey. That would be the real issue with the Divine right of kings I would think. Is a king really a god as King James proclaimed? Is that really a Christian proposition?
Yes, killing a king is traitorous and there was a plot to kill King James in 1605. None of that justifies are explains the divine right of kings stuff. It does not even justify his persecution of Catholics.
I don't care if I'm released or not. I'm ready to see this whole ship sink if you want to know.
Typical elderly fundy. Praying for the end times because your knees hurt?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 697 by Faith, posted 05-26-2014 2:34 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 701 of 1000 (728259)
05-26-2014 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 699 by Theodoric
05-26-2014 7:43 AM


Re: King James I of England
All of these wonderful sources Faith finds seem to be self published.
This thread was started so that Faith could present her evidence that the Catholic Church, past and present, was the evil Empire, while the reformers and their followers are sugar, spice and everything nice.
I for one, was not expecting cites to the Journal of World History. I was expecting exactly the level of scholarship that we are getting. Jack diddly squat. (Pardon the triple negative)

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 699 by Theodoric, posted 05-26-2014 7:43 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 702 of 1000 (728262)
05-26-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 700 by NoNukes
05-26-2014 10:45 AM


Re: King James I
quote:
Yes, killing a king is traitorous and there was a plot to kill King James in 1605. None of that justifies are explains the divine right of kings stuff. It does not even justify his persecution of Catholics.
Don't forget that it was the Puritans who killed James' successor, called by some "Charles the Martyr". It was pretty clear that Coston would be somewhat biased in avour of the Stuart kings when I saw that mentioned.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 700 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2014 10:45 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 703 of 1000 (728264)
05-26-2014 12:03 PM
Reply to: Message 697 by Faith
05-26-2014 2:34 AM


Re: King James I
This bogus moral equivalence you all practice here is really insane.
I know, treating Protestants like they were Catholics. It's disgusting!
No distinctions made between murderers and God believers, or you'll bend over backwards to prove the God believers are murderers.
Erm
quote:
{Catholics} attacked and murdered Waldensians
Are Catholics atheists or something?
You are the one who has been bending over backwards to defend horrific torture of innocent people that sounds like the sadistic Inquisition.
It's hard to believe you would make an equivalence between Christians being free to refuse a service that would violate God's law, and Catholics being free to murder "heretic" kings on the authority of the Pope.
Killing James VI - evil
James killing and torturing up to 100 innocent people (including Protestants) - regrettable but ultimately OK
Killing Mary, Queen of Scots - good
Killing Charles I - ??? Probably evil
Killing Hitler - I assume that one was OK, too.
Am I right?
By the times of King James, the Popes of Rome had been usurping the rights of kings for centuries on end, placing them under interdict and causing many troubles, e.g., releasing Catholics from obeying the laws of the land, AND TELLING THEM THAT IT IS A "MERITORIOUS" THING TO KILL A HERETICK KING. IN FACT, JESUITS AND ROMAN CATHOLICS TRIED TO KILL KING JAMES IN THE GUNPOWDER PLOT OF 1605. King James wrote forcefully about the Roman Catholic church's tendency to usurp power, kill kings, and disrupt kingdoms. The following is excerpted from, "King James has a message that Rome does not want you to hear."
Why do you keep pasting this? It's some random guy with a CAPS LOCK problem who does not name which Pope said this, when, or source it in any way. On another page he reveals that this isn't a quote from a Pope after all but the indictment against Catholic terrorists as written by the anti-Catholic Protestants who had tortured them.
This is what you are comparing to Christians calling gay marriage a sin
How about comparing refusing to serving gay customers to forcing Catholics from their jobs and homes?
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

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 Message 697 by Faith, posted 05-26-2014 2:34 AM Faith has not replied

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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17827
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


(1)
Message 704 of 1000 (728266)
05-26-2014 12:12 PM
Reply to: Message 703 by Modulous
05-26-2014 12:03 PM


Re: King James I
I think that Faith has made it quite plain that anti-Catholic writings are automatically true. To her. Unless they aren't vicious enough, perhaps.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1472 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 705 of 1000 (728271)
05-26-2014 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 704 by PaulK
05-26-2014 12:12 PM


Inquisition in force in 1848 and probably still...
I think that Faith has made it quite plain that anti-Catholic writings are automatically true. To her. Unless they aren't vicious enough, perhaps.
I don't recall posting anything "vicious" but hey, you here all know my mind so much better than I possibly could. Anyway, I just found this one, collects some interesting facts in one place that I've been taking notes on:
So, you think the Roman Inquisition ended many centuries ago? Think again
Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:22 (Before It's News)
When Garibaldi’s armies marched into Rome in 1848, it was found that the Roman Catholic Church was walling-up, burning alive and also lowering victims — heretics and liberals, into giant ovens.
The Vatican Church dungeons, discovered there, were opened up for the public to see (interestingly similar to what was done after WW2 when the Nazi camps were also opened for public viewing?)
Although I have seen, in a film, pictures of just what was displayed to the public, I can’t find anything on a www image search.
Has there been an attempt to delete these events, and the photographic record, from history?
These events and the pictures are detailed in a film by Adulum Productions called ‘Tares Among the Wheat’ (follow link)
-->https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wep1KFb3wns
The film also details the discovery that the Inquisition was still in full operation at the Convent of Santo Domingo in Mexico, exposed by H Grattan Guinness in his book City of Seven Hills, (1891).
The evidence was presented in an English Baptist Church publication called The Sword and the Trowel’, spring edition 1873 (see link below)
The article was written by the ‘Prince of Preachers’ Mr Charles Spurgeon, minister of the Metropolitan Tabernacle, in South London.
The Sword and the Trowel is still in publication — although todays reverent gentlemen at the Metropolitan Tabernacle are peculiarly reluctant to discuss this and other related matters.
Have the Jesuits infiltrated ALL the Protestant churches? Even the godly Baptist Churches, and London’s famous ‘Met Tab’? I suspect, sadly, yes.
The following is from the Metropolitan Tabernacle publication called ‘The Sword and Trowel’, January 1873:
The Spurgeon Library | Page not found
The times changed, and being no longer able to burn the heretics and the excommunicated publicly, the holy office found means of putting them to death without the shedding of blood and for the glory of God, by means of walling-up and ovens.The walling-up was of two kinds, the propria, andimpropria, or complete and incomplete. By the first they punished dogmatists, by the second, the professors of witchcraft and sorcery. To punish the former they made a niche in a wall, where standing upright on his feet, they placed the condemned, binding him well to the wall with cords and chains, so that he could not move in the least. They then began to build from the feet to the knees, and every day they raised the wall a course, at the same time giving the prisoner to eat and to drink. When he died, and God knows with what agonies, the wall was built up. But dead or alive, it was closed in such a manner that no one could see where the niche had been and that a body remained there.The incomplete walling-up, or enclosure, was made by sitting the condemned in a pit bound hand and foot, so that his head only was above ground. The pit was then filled up with quicklime, and moisture from the body soon acting on it, converted it into fire, and the miserable wretch was burnt alive with the most frightful torture.As knowledge and civilization increased, and the people began to see through the impostures of the priests, they feared lest, spite of their secrecy, such atrocities might creep abroad amongst the corrupt sons of the age, and in order to retain the knowledge of these holy proceedings amongst a few, they dismissed the building-up, and adopted a plan more anticipative of the pains of hell, and this was by burning the condemned without flame, and without shedding of blood. They invented ovens, or furnaces, which being made red-hot, they lowered the condemned into them, bound hand and foot, and immediately closed over them the mouth of the furnace. This barbarous punishment was substituted for the burning pile, and in 1849, these furnaces at Rome were laid open to public view in the dungeons of the holy Roman Inquisition, near the great church of the Vatican
And — believe it or not — the Holy Roman Inquisition is still in existence today, but has been renamed several times.
It’s now called Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith(C.D.F.). You will find all the details here on Wikipedia:
Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith - Wikipedia
TMWKTMBNE
I denounce you as the enemy and the anti-Christ and all your false doctrine. I denounce you! I denounce you, as Christ’s enemy!
Dr Ian Paisley, speaking from the audience of the European Parliament, addressing Pope John Paul II in 1988, who was addressing the European Parliament. Dr Paisley was violently removed from the building.
No peace with ROME
Charles Spurgeon, Sword and the Trowel, January 1873.
The Tap Blog is a collective of like-minded researchers and writers who've joined forces to distribute information and voice opinions avoided by the world's media.
Source: the tap: So, you think the Roman Inquisition ended many centuries ago? Think again
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 704 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2014 12:12 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 708 by PaulK, posted 05-26-2014 2:02 PM Faith has replied

  
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