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Author Topic:   Catholicism versus Protestantism down the centuries
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 721 of 1000 (728306)
05-26-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by Faith
05-24-2014 11:31 AM


Simonides
Nobody bothered to check his many references to people involved who could have given support to his story.
From the B.Q again:
Determined to follow up the matter, Mr. Wright shortly afterwards took the trouble to make inquiries respecting this said Callinikos Hieromonachos. He wrote to the British chaplain at Alexandria, and requested him to ascertain the character and position of this worthy. The chaplain applied to a Greek gentleman holding a high position in that city, and through his assistance the following information was obtained from a priest belonging to the cathedral of Alexandria. There is no one answering to the Callinikos Hieromonachos who was said to have written to Simonides, living at Alexandria. But there was an individual of that name at Sinai. Application was therefore at once made to him. The inquiry was met by a negative. He knew no one of that name; and all the leading persons at Mount Sinai, including one who was librarian from 1841 to 1858, were ready to vouch for the fact that Simonides had never visited the monastery at all!
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Faith, posted 05-24-2014 11:31 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 722 of 1000 (728307)
05-26-2014 6:09 PM
Reply to: Message 655 by Faith
05-24-2014 11:31 AM


The Shepherd of Hermes
who in fact had the Greek original of the Shepherd of Hermas that was found in the Codex Sinaiticus
Lemme guess - Pinto told you this lie? Well I know he did. He approvingly sent you a quote which said 'Because included in Cod. Sinaiticus was a copy of the Shepherd of Hermas, that apparently matched the copy presented by Simonides at Leipzig.'
Here is a book that contains facsimiles of the text that Simonides found. It contains a brief introduction that discusses Simonides role in the affair. Take a look at the style of the writing. It's very cramped and rather ugly looking.
Here is the 'Shepherd' in the Sinaiticus. Tell me - looking at the two pieces of evidence for yourself - does it even remotely look like Simonides' text is even the tiniest bit similar to the Codex Sinaiticus?
Do you not see that anybody who makes that claim can not have seen both texts?
Why don't you write to Pinto to see what he has to say about this?
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 655 by Faith, posted 05-24-2014 11:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 723 by Faith, posted 05-26-2014 7:49 PM Modulous has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 723 of 1000 (728308)
05-26-2014 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 722 by Modulous
05-26-2014 6:09 PM


Re: The Shepherd of Hermes
I took him to mean that they were both in Greek, which was the unusual thing. They'd only had copies in Latin previously.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 722 by Modulous, posted 05-26-2014 6:09 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 724 of 1000 (728309)
05-26-2014 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by Faith
05-26-2014 7:49 PM


Re: The Shepherd of Hermes
You're right, that's what he must have meant.
But if you look at the introduction to the book Modulous links you to, you'll see that while this is true, it is not a good basis for an argument.
No-one disputes that the Codex Athous existed and that Simonides had seen it. The remaining question was, were the leaves he was selling genuine, or were they copies? If some were genuine, and some copies, which were which? Now then tenth page may have been neither genuine nor a copy, but Simonides' reconstruction, from the Latin, of what he thought it should have said. But in the case of the tenth leaf the Codex Sinaiticus couldn't vindicate him, or even prove that he'd seen the tenth leaf, since the Sinaiticus doesn't get that far through The Shepherd of Hermas.
I shall try to find out more about what happened at Leipzig in 1856, but on the basis of Kirsopp Lake's introduction, the argument fails: Simonides couldn't have been, and wasn't, cleared of wrongdoing by the discovery of the Sinaiticus --- as proof of which, consider that Lake's introduction was written after the discovery of the Sinaiticus; and that Lake, who obviously thinks the Sinaiticus genuine, still thinks of Simonides as a crook.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by Faith, posted 05-26-2014 7:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 725 of 1000 (728310)
05-26-2014 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by Faith
05-26-2014 7:49 PM


Leipzig, 1856
The following is taken from Javier Martnez, Fakes and Forgers of Classical Literature: Ergo decipiatur!, BRILL, Jan 16, 2014.
It was also there [Leipzig, 1856] that he sold his most notable forgery, Uranius's Historia Aegyptiae. Uranius was an author that Simonides dated to the fourth century of our era and whose manuscript he passed off as authentic with such success -- he even convinced a commission of the Prussian Academy, endorsed by professors Boeckh and Lepsius -- that the well-known philologist K.W. Dindorf, on behalf of the Prussian king, paid a substantial sum for it and began to prepare a critical edition of it in Leipzig. It was on the verge of being published, but the book was retrieved just in time from the printers after Professor Tischendorf and other scholars meticulously examined the purported codex rescriptus sold to Dindorf upon royal commissioning in view of the record of forgeries of Simnoides in England. [...] The whole issue ended, as Lalanne reported, with the arrest of Simonides in Leipzig and impounding of the sum of money he had received for the Uranius' palimpsest.
In short, this whole thing about the Shepherd of Hermas is something of a mare's-nest. Simonides was accused of forging the Historia Aegyptiae; Tischendorf helped convict him of this; for this Simonides was arrested; and for this he paid the price.
This has nothing to do with whether the Codex Athous was genuine, and nothing about the Codex Sinaiticus could vindicate him on this issue unless it happened to have a copy of the Historia Aegyptiae tucked away inside it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by Faith, posted 05-26-2014 7:49 PM Faith has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 726 of 1000 (728311)
05-26-2014 10:15 PM
Reply to: Message 723 by Faith
05-26-2014 7:49 PM


why oh why
I took him to mean that they were both in Greek, which was the unusual thing. They'd only had copies in Latin previously.
I see. So where did you get the notion that
quote:
{Simonides} in fact had the Greek original of the Shepherd of Hermas that was found in the Codex Sinaiticus
And why does some of manuscripts Simonides hand over contain phrases characteristic of modern Greek and translations clearly taken from known Latin texts that contradict known fragments of the Greek copies.
Pinto's argument is that
quote:
The problem with Bentley’s argument is that, in 1859, another copy of the Shepherd was discovered as part of the Codex Sinaiticus, and it matched the one presented by Simonides years earlier.
Deliberately omitting the bits where Simonides had filled in gaps with Latin translations and the entire ending is his own work. This certainly undermines any claims of Simonides as an honest scholar.
Still - it has to raise the question. If Simonides knew about the Shepherd of Hermas since before 1840, and since it is basically his biggest contribution to academia, why hold onto it for 15 years? Why use it to create a secret uncial codex for a Csar, and when the project falls through, just sit on it? Why did he need to embellish the truth by palming off a non-genuine ending when he did finally reveal it?
And why, when making it did he include things that are unusual to Codex Sinaiticus (perhaps appearing in a handful of other contexts only). For example Matthew 8:12 in Sinaiticus reads:
quote:
But the children of the kingdom shall go out into {the} outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Unlike any other Greek text known to Simonides (or indeed as far as we know, to this day, anybody).
Matthew 16:12 a mere textual variant (no actual meaning seems to be changed) only appears one other text Simonides could conceivably have known of (but does appear in a text that would be discovered later).
Why in Luke 1:26 did he opt to write 'a city in Judea' instead of 'Nazareth'?
Luke 2:37 why is she 74?
Further, if he was creating an Alexandrian style 'fresh' copy of the Bible 'written according the ancient form' for the Csar why use the Majority version of Mark 10:19 and include 'do not defraud' where Alexandrian styles omit it? Why include 'pray' in Mark 13:33?
Why, in his original story did he say he was 15 when he began the Codex? Why did he say that he first learned that manuscript had been sent to Sinai in 1846, that he saw it again in 1852 with the dedication removed, but then later say that he saw the codex at Sinai in 1844 just before Tischendorf arrived? How did Porphyrius Uspensky find two leaves of the Codex used to bind a book that had clearly been that way for some considerable time?
Why did he write 'Chrestian' every time, and then erase the 'e' to make it look like an 'i'? The Alexendrinus uses Christian.
Why did he occasionally use the peculiar form of omega that the Vaticanus uses in a handful of occasions but nobody else but the likes of Papyrus 28? As an expert paleographer this is very strange behaviour.
Why bother with all the marginal notes? Like
quote:
Collated with an exceedingly ancient copy which was corrected by the hand of the holy martyr Pamphilus; and at the end of the same ancient book, which began with the first book of Kings and ended with Esther, there is some such subscription as this, in the hand of the same martyr: Copied and corrected from the Hexapla of Origen corrected by himself. Antoninus the Confessor collated it; I, Pamphilus, corrected the volume in prison through the great favour and enlargement of God; and if it may be said without offence it is not easy to find a copy comparable to this copy. The same ancient copy differed from the present volume in respect of certain proper names.'
There are so many questions don't you think? I could probably think of some more.
I got many questions from 'The Mount Sinai Manuscript of the Bible with Four Illustrations', Fourth Edition, revised. —1935

This message is a reply to:
 Message 723 by Faith, posted 05-26-2014 7:49 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 728 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2014 11:32 PM Modulous has seen this message but not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 727 of 1000 (728312)
05-26-2014 10:49 PM
Reply to: Message 721 by Dr Adequate
05-26-2014 4:48 PM


Pinto
Now let's look at what your pal Pinto writes:
Pinto writes:
Furthermore, the argument about "revenge" against Tischendorf doesn't work either. The reason is that they claim Simonides wanted revenge because Tischendorf had supposedly "exposed" his copy of the Shepherd of Hermas as a forgery in 1856 at the University of Leipzig.
This appears to be a complete straw man. Even by Pinto's own admission further down in his own post, Tischendorf never in fact claimed that the 1856 Shepherd was a fake. He claimed that it was a medieval retranslation from the Latin; which impugns the scholarly value of the document but not the honesty of Simonides.
Where he did impugn the honesty of Simonides was (see my previous post) when he exposed the Historia Aegyptae and got Simonides arrested for fraud, losing him a small fortune.
Now that is a motive for the malice which Simonides' letters concerning the Sinaiticus clearly display.
I have no idea where Pinto is getting his ideas, but perhaps you should inform him of the actual facts.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 721 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-26-2014 4:48 PM Dr Adequate has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 728 of 1000 (728313)
05-26-2014 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 726 by Modulous
05-26-2014 10:15 PM


Re: why oh why
Another question which comes to mind is why Simonides changed the order of the canon. In ancient Bibles, the order wasn't fixed. A modern scribe aiming at deliberate fraud might have jumbled the order to make the book look old. But Simonides --- Simonides was an honorable man, as he and Faith assure us. So what possible motive could he have for (e.g.) moving Acts near the end of the N.T, rather than putting it straight after the Gospels where the Tsar would expect to find it?

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 729 of 1000 (728335)
05-27-2014 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 720 by NoNukes
05-26-2014 3:27 PM


Re: King James I
Yes, "overdid it to an extreme" sounds pretty blameless.
Overdoing the idea of the divine right of kings didn't do any harm to anyone.
Here's my current assessment:
Except for his lamentable acceptance of torture as reasonable punishment in a few instances, King James lived a blameless life.
I don't think believing in the divine right of kings made him bad, just wrong, and again, in historical context it was quite understandable.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 720 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2014 3:27 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 730 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2014 8:23 AM Faith has replied
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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 730 of 1000 (728337)
05-27-2014 8:23 AM
Reply to: Message 729 by Faith
05-27-2014 8:10 AM


Re: King James I
Except for his lamentable acceptance of torture as reasonable punishment in a few instances
A few? Your memory is very selective here. James was responsible for the torture of hundreds.
And somehow you seem to have forgotten about his chasing Puritans out of England, and to have set his persecution of Catholics to naught despite having previously acknowledged it. Is this how Paul/Saul viewed his own persecution of Christians prior to his conversion? What did Jesus say about that on the road to Damascus?
Overdoing the idea of the divine right of kings didn't do any harm to anyone.
We've discussed examples of how it did hurt people for which you had no answer.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 729 by Faith, posted 05-27-2014 8:10 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 731 by Faith, posted 05-27-2014 8:28 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 731 of 1000 (728338)
05-27-2014 8:28 AM
Reply to: Message 730 by NoNukes
05-27-2014 8:23 AM


Re: King James I
ABE: Harm to whom?
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 730 by NoNukes, posted 05-27-2014 8:23 AM NoNukes has replied

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 732 of 1000 (728344)
05-27-2014 9:36 AM
Reply to: Message 731 by Faith
05-27-2014 8:28 AM


Re: King James I
ABE: Harm to whom?
Faith, given that even without the answer to your question, I've already pointed out other issues besides toturing and killing a 'few' suspected witches and sorcerers, I'm going to suggest that you review the posts we've already made on this subject.
But "whom" would include the people he though it was his divine right to persecute by passing laws preventing them from practicing their religion. Besides all that King James Divine Right of Kings is directly counter to one of the ten commandments, unlike say gay marriage. One might ask you who that hurts?
At this point the we've already gone through a couple of rounds of you saying King James was blameless except for torturing at least many dozens of people (as if that were nothing), and then you acknowledging that he did other things, only to have you repeat the idea that his only blame involves only tortured a few people. Please forgive me if I don't go through yet another round of that.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 731 by Faith, posted 05-27-2014 8:28 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 306 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 733 of 1000 (728347)
05-27-2014 10:00 AM


Simonides: Half A Summary
The character of Simonides
Faith has actually denied that Simonides was a fraudster. She seems to think that there was some sort of conspiracy against him. If so, the conspiracy must have begun long prior to the kerfuffle over the Codex Sinaiticus; he was denounced as a fraud in Greece, denounced as a fraud in Constantinople, denounced as a fraud in England, denounced and arrested as a fraud in Germany, before the Sinaiticus ever came to light.
If he was not a fraud, his share of both good and bad luck is remarkable --- he had the good luck to discover more remarkable documents then ten other men; including what is perhaps the most remarkable document of all time, the original of the Gospel of Matthew; and yet he also had the worst of luck, in being separately and severally accused of fraud everywhere he went.
It seems, however, that he was in fact a practiced and serial fraudster. An account of his activities in several nations may be found here, pages 133 - 136.
Here he is being detected in Greece:
Several years ago he suddenly appeared at Athens, and offered a mass of the rarest MSS. of lost works, and some very important MSS. of the Classics, all very ancient. He said his uncle had discovered them in a monastery on Mount Athos: he had carried them away secretly, and there were still more left behind. He was very mysterious, and spoke always of his enemies and spies. The Greek Government appointed a Commission to examine his MSS. He produced a very ancient Homer, with the complete Commentary of Eustathius. The Commission reported favourably: there was only one dissentient voice. A new inquiry was made, and the MS. turned out to be a most accurate copy of Wolf’s edition of Homer, with all its errata.
And here he is cutting an inglorious figure in Constantinople:
A last appeal was made. Ibrahim Pasha, one of the most learned men at Constantinople, was building a new house near the Hippodrome (Atmeidan). Excavations were going on; and Simonides, on being asked by M. Cayol, declared that an Arabian MS, written in Syriac characters, would be found on a certain spot. The workmen dug for two hours, Ibrahim Pasha and M. Cayol being present, and Simonides not being allowed to descend. At last a pause was made, and the gentlemen partook of a luncheon. After luncheon the digging was resumed, and almost immediately Simonides was heard to exclaim, ‘There it is! bring it up.’ A box was brought; but the soil which adhered to it was of a different kind from that of the ground. The workmen were grinning : and when interrogated, confessed that, during luncheon, the Greek came out for a short time, jumped into the pit, and began to burrow.
This put an end to Simonides’ career in the East.
These details appeared in the Athenaeum of 1856, "taken from a literary Hue-and-Cry published in 1853. They rest on the authority of Dr. Mordtmann, Charg-d’Afaires of the Hanseatic Towns"; i.e. they were published before the Sinaiticus affair. If anyone proposes there was a conspiracy against Simonides --- an international conspiracy, extending to multiple countries and two continents --- must at least admit that the motive cannot, therefore, involve the Sinaiticus. They are free to suggest what the motive was, and attempt to establish the conspiracy, but the onus of proof would very much be on them.
The motive of Simonides
We come now to the Sinaiticus affair itself.
Did Simonides had a motive? Yes. His repeated failures must have left him embittered against the scholarly world in general; but he had a particular motive against Tischendorf. The following is taken from Javier Martnez, Fakes and Forgers of Classical Literature: Ergo decipiatur!, BRILL, Jan 16, 2014.
It was also there [Leipzig, 1856] that he sold his most notable forgery, Uranius's Historia Aegyptiae. Uranius was an author that Simonides dated to the fourth century of our era and whose manuscript he passed off as authentic with such success -- he even convinced a commission of the Prussian Academy, endorsed by professors Boeckh and Lepsius -- that the well-known philologist K.W. Dindorf, on behalf of the Prussian king, paid a substantial sum for it and began to prepare a critical edition of it in Leipzig. It was on the verge of being published, but the book was retrieved just in time from the printers after Professor Tischendorf and other scholars meticulously examined the purported codex rescriptus sold to Dindorf upon royal commissioning in view of the record of forgeries of Simnoides in England. [...] The whole issue ended, as Lalanne reported, with the arrest of Simonides in Leipzig and impounding of the sum of money he had received for the Uranius' palimpsest.
So Tischendorf was instrumental in having Simonides arrested and losing him a small fortune. This is a reason to hold a grudge.
Moreover, it can be shown from Simonides' letters that he did in fact hold a grudge against Tischendorf: he repeatedly says that Tischendorf must be a complete incompetent to have been taken in by the Sinaiticus, and also insinuates that he stole it:
You have thus a short and clear account of the Codex Simonideios, which Professor Tischendorf, when at Sinai, contrived, I know not how, to carry away [...] Any person learned in paleography ought to be able to tell at once that it is a MS of the present age.
You must permit me to express my sincere regret that, whilst the many valuable remains of antiquity in my possession are frequently attributed to my own hands, the one poor work of my youth is set down by a gentleman who enjoys a great reputation for learning as the earliest copy of the Sacred Scriptures.
This has nothing, however, on the spite and animus shown by "Kallinikos", of whom more below.
Digression: an anti-motive?
First, a quick digression: it has been suggested by Faith and her friend Pinto that Simonides had what one might call an "anti-motive". The discovery of the Sinaiticus persuaded Tischendorf to recant his previous belief that the Athens Hermas was a medieval retranslation.
This admission could be of no benefit to Simonides. It was not on the basis of Hermas that he had been reviled across the face of Europe as a fraud. It was not by showing that Hermas was a fraud that Tischendorf got Simonides arrested in Leipzig. That was over his spurious Historia Aegypticus.
So all the Sinaiticus did was get Tischendorf to change his mind on a matter of no importance to Simonides. Now, I am not a vengeful man, but it seems to me that the pleasure of seeing one's enemy change his mind about a scholarly question to which one is personally indifferent, is nothing when compared to having him publicly reviled as an incompetent buffoon, a poseur, a fraud, and a thief, which is was Simonides aimed at and partially or temporarily achieved with his letters and those of "Kallinikos".
And Kallinikos?
Well, as he is Simonides one support in this whole matter, and as Simonides, we must now grant, was a conman, it is important to find out whether "Kallinikos" actually existed.
People tried and failed. From the British Quarterly:
Determined to follow up the matter, Mr. Wright shortly afterwards took the trouble to make inquiries respecting this said Callinikos Hieromonachos. He wrote to the British chaplain at Alexandria, and requested him to ascertain the character and position of this worthy. The chaplain applied to a Greek gentleman holding a high position in that city, and through his assistance the following information was obtained from a priest belonging to the cathedral of Alexandria. There is no one answering to the Callinikos Hieromonachos who was said to have written to Simonides, living at Alexandria. But there was an individual of that name at Sinai. Application was therefore at once made to him. The inquiry was met by a negative. He knew no one of that name; and all the leading persons at Mount Sinai, including one who was librarian from 1841 to 1858, were ready to vouch for the fact that Simonides had never visited the monastery at all!
So not only couldn't they find Kallinikos, they also couldn't find anyone at Sinai to confirm Simonides' story.
---
That, then, gives us the background. Simonides was a liar and a fraud; he had a reason to hold a grudge against Tischendorf; he did in fact hold a grudge against Tischendorf; he could exercise that grudge by doing what he did; Kallinikos was apparently what we would now call a "sock-puppet"; and no-one else can vouch for Simonides' story about the Codex Sinaiticus.
With all this in mind, we could now turn to the Codex itself, and see whether the evidence is more consistent with it having been forged-but-not-really by Simonides, or with it being an authentic document. But that would be a subject for another post.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 734 by Faith, posted 05-27-2014 10:37 AM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 734 of 1000 (728352)
05-27-2014 10:37 AM
Reply to: Message 733 by Dr Adequate
05-27-2014 10:00 AM


Re: Simonides: Half A Summary
Sigh. I got through your first sentence and already have to object. I have not "denied that Simonides was a fraudster." Chris Pinto's study of the situation suggests that he might have been sincere, and I think that's all I said, or that Pinto said. Pinto has emphasized that there are many unanswered questions while bringing out the elements he thinks may justify him. I have no reason to assume anything about the situation, and have been more or less waiting to see what develops, both here and on my blog. I've found this discussion interesting and wondered if someone here might be able to actually prove that he was the con man he's been accused of being, but I haven't mulled it carefully yet, and since there is a tendency here to take any point of view that opposes what you think my point of view is, I maintain at least a position of neutrality or inconclusiveness for now.
If you want me to read through a whole post of yours it might be best to start out with a fair assessment of my point of view.
Edited by Faith, : add comma

This message is a reply to:
 Message 733 by Dr Adequate, posted 05-27-2014 10:00 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 735 by PaulK, posted 05-27-2014 11:03 AM Faith has replied
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17825
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 735 of 1000 (728353)
05-27-2014 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 734 by Faith
05-27-2014 10:37 AM


Re: Simonides: Half A Summary
quote:
Sigh. I got through your first sentence and already have to object. I have not "denied that Simonides was a fraudster." Chris Pinto's study of the situation suggests that he might have been sincere, and I think that's all I said, or that Pinto said.
Try rereading post Message 683 about Simonides, despite the title.
All the accusations against him are lies. He was no forger....
I will grant that you have moderated your views since, but that is a long way from merely suggesting that he might have been sincere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 734 by Faith, posted 05-27-2014 10:37 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 736 by Faith, posted 05-27-2014 11:14 AM PaulK has replied

  
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