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Author Topic:   Haldane's 1957 Paper, "The Cost Of Selection"
GarretKadeDupre
Junior Member (Idle past 1001 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 05-23-2014


Message 1 of 12 (728133)
05-24-2014 1:52 AM


Does Haldane's 1957 paper, "The Cost Of Selection" account for sexual recombination and if so, where and how?
Replies to this message:
 Message 2 by Admin, posted 05-24-2014 8:10 AM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 05-24-2014 8:40 AM GarretKadeDupre has responded

    
Admin
Director
Posts: 12523
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Member Rating: 2.2


Message 2 of 12 (728134)
05-24-2014 8:10 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GarretKadeDupre
05-24-2014 1:52 AM


Here's a copy of the paper: The Cost of Natural Selection

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-24-2014 1:52 AM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded

    
Admin
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Joined: 06-14-2002
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Message 3 of 12 (728136)
05-24-2014 8:18 AM


Thread Copied from Proposed New Topics Forum
Thread copied here from the Haldane's 1957 Paper, "The Cost Of Selection" thread in the Proposed New Topics forum.
    
RAZD
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Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 4 of 12 (728137)
05-24-2014 8:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by GarretKadeDupre
05-24-2014 1:52 AM


As the old thread (Page's misuse of Haldane's Dilemma) is now closed and you have repeated your question here:

Does Haldane's 1957 paper, "The Cost Of Selection" account for sexual recombination and if so, where and how?

I'll repeat my reply in Message 56 on the old thread:

You realize that this paper is 57 years old yes?

Why would you think he needs to?

After which you repeated your question in Message 57:

Does Haldane account for sexual recombination in his 1957 paper, "The Cost Of Selection" and if so, where and how?

Admin has posted an on-line copy of the paper, so you can read it yourself and see.

But I am curious why you are interested in this paper. What is your point here? You've made three posts to date and they are all the same question.

Thanks for acknowledging my question.

You are welcome.

Enjoy


we are limited in our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-24-2014 1:52 AM GarretKadeDupre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-24-2014 10:16 PM RAZD has responded

  
GarretKadeDupre
Junior Member (Idle past 1001 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 05-23-2014


Message 5 of 12 (728192)
05-24-2014 10:16 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by RAZD
05-24-2014 8:40 AM


RAZD you did not even try to answer my question.

Would someone else please help me here? I've read the paper through more than once. I've been told that Haldane does in fact account for sexual recombination in his paper, but I don't see where or how.

There are other issues I have too. ReMine's website (http://saintpaulscience.com) makes a lot of assertions about Haldane's paper, but I've found his site very, very unhelpful in debating Evolution proponents. As a Young Earth Creationist, I have to say saintpaulscience.com is a very poorly written site, especially since it masquerades as a go-to site for YEC apologetics.

Edited by Admin, : Fix link.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by RAZD, posted 05-24-2014 8:40 AM RAZD has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by NoNukes, posted 05-24-2014 10:54 PM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded
 Message 7 by Percy, posted 05-25-2014 8:32 AM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2014 1:40 AM GarretKadeDupre has responded
 Message 9 by RAZD, posted 05-26-2014 7:06 AM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded
 Message 10 by Pressie, posted 05-26-2014 9:25 AM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 12 (728193)
05-24-2014 10:54 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre
05-24-2014 10:16 PM


Is there anything at the link you posted besides an advertisement for some book that I won't be purchasing?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-24-2014 10:16 PM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 15667
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
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Message 7 of 12 (728198)
05-25-2014 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre
05-24-2014 10:16 PM


GarretkadeDupre writes:

Would someone else please help me here? I've read the paper through more than once. I've been told that Haldane does in fact account for sexual recombination in his paper, but I don't see where or how.

Just poking around on the Internet I found this over at the Wikipedia article on Haldane's Dilemma:

Wikipedia writes:

Haldane stated at the time of publication "I am quite aware that my conclusions will probably need drastic revision", and subsequent corrected calculations found that the cost disappears. He had made an invalid simplifying assumption which negated his assumption of constant population size, and had also incorrectly assumed that two mutations would take twice as long to reach fixation as one, while sexual recombination means that two can be selected simultaneously so that both reach fixation more quickly.

So it looks like the answer is no, Haldane did not account for sexual recombination.

--Percy


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-24-2014 10:16 PM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 12 (728241)
05-26-2014 1:40 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre
05-24-2014 10:16 PM


As a Young Earth Creationist, I have to say saintpaulscience.com is a very poorly written site, especially since it masquerades as a go-to site for YEC apologetics.

What do you consider to be good sites for YEC apologetics?


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-24-2014 10:16 PM GarretKadeDupre has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-31-2014 12:26 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

  
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 9 of 12 (728246)
05-26-2014 7:06 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre
05-24-2014 10:16 PM


math vs reality ... reality wins every time
RAZD you did not even try to answer my question.

Correct, and for several reasons: (1) you had not said anything about actually reading the paper, (2) you hadn't (and still haven't) given any reason for your interest in such an old outdated paper, (3) because it is purported to be a mathematical model that was likely inaccurate (and is, as has been noted in Percy's post, Message 7), (4) I didn't want to invest much of my personal time on it because (5) Haldane is not a name I invest a lot of trust in.

Would someone else please help me here? I've read the paper through more than once. I've been told that Haldane does in fact account for sexual recombination in his paper, but I don't see where or how.

So? What is the problem whether he does or doesn't?

You do realize, I hope, that mathematical models are useful only so far as they actually model reality, and that when there is a difference between reality and the model it is the model that is wrong, either in it's structure or in it's parameters and assumptions (and again this is shown to be the case here, see Percy's post, Message 7).

There are other issues I have too. ReMine's website (http://saintpaulscience.com) makes a lot of assertions about Haldane's paper, ...

You mean this page: Haldane's Dilemma?

There has been some discussion here regarding this, but again it is just math vs reality, and whenever there is a difference between model and reality, reality wins every time. You are aware, I trust, of the story regarding an aeronautical engineer that 'proved' that bumblebees cannot fly, yes? Do you think the bees would suddenly start dropping out of the sky if they read the paper?

... but I've found his site very, very unhelpful in debating Evolution proponents. ...

So it is probably bunk, like a lot of purported religious sites trying to shoehorn science into religions beliefs. If you want to have some fun you can post those assertions, along with reference to the pertinent Haldane papers, and we can evaluate them for how they stand up to reality.

Now if you want to learn more about actual evolution arguments -- in order to be better prepared to discuss evolution in a debate -- I can recommend this excellent site:

http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/IIntro.shtml

... As a Young Earth Creationist, I have to say saintpaulscience.com is a very poorly written site, especially since it masquerades as a go-to site for YEC apologetics.

Well I can't help you there -- I don't know of a single 'good' site for YEC arguments that aren't fatally flawed in one or more ways.

The basic reason they fail is that the objective empirical evidence shows the earth actually is old, and denying the massive evidence of this rather pertinent detail is delusional. If you want to discuss this issue in more detail (and I advise you do, before proceeding to make silly statements) I suggest you read through the first couple of posts on Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1. I'll be happy to answer any questions you have on that thread.

Enjoy.


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-24-2014 10:16 PM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 1714
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010
Member Rating: 3.2


Message 10 of 12 (728254)
05-26-2014 9:25 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre
05-24-2014 10:16 PM


YEC?
GarretKadeDupre

As a Young Earth Creationist,...

Publish your geological research on South African geology in a South African Geological journal. A great way for me to evaluatuate your research would be to publish the research on South African geology in the South African Journal of Geology. Without that it really, really wouldn't mean anything.

YEC? It's the same as a person talking nonsense from Weskoppies.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-24-2014 10:16 PM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded

    
GarretKadeDupre
Junior Member (Idle past 1001 days)
Posts: 5
Joined: 05-23-2014


Message 11 of 12 (728602)
05-31-2014 12:26 AM
Reply to: Message 8 by NoNukes
05-26-2014 1:40 AM


What do you consider to be good sites for YEC apologetics?

creation.com and icr.org

So it looks like the answer is no, Haldane did not account for sexual recombination.

--Percy

Ok thanks. I guess I'll have to conclude YEC'rs have no evidence Haldane accounted for sexual recombination after all.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by NoNukes, posted 05-26-2014 1:40 AM NoNukes has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 05-31-2014 7:31 AM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded

    
RAZD
Member
Posts: 18855
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004
Member Rating: 3.5


Message 12 of 12 (728629)
05-31-2014 7:31 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by GarretKadeDupre
05-31-2014 12:26 AM


creationism based on misinformation
Nice html coding, but dBcodes work better here:

... as you are new here, some posting tips:

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quotes are easy

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RAZD writes:

quotes are easy

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quote:
quotes are easy

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creation.com and icr.org

Error prone.

The biggest issue I have with YEC beliefs is that all the evidence shows that the earth is actually very very old (4.55 billion plus years), and thus any discussion of a younger age has\uses false information and ignores\denies objective empirical evidence. See Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1.

There are similar problems with misrepresentations of evolution. See Why creationist definitions of evolution are wrong, terribly wrong..

Ok thanks. I guess I'll have to conclude YEC'rs have no evidence Haldane accounted for sexual recombination after all.

Which is neither here nor there when it comes to evolution being the best explanation for the diversity of life on earth. If you learn what evolution is really is and how it works you may find that it is not much of an issue -- as many Christians have found before.

Enjoy

Edited by RAZD, : clarity/subtitle/added links


we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by GarretKadeDupre, posted 05-31-2014 12:26 AM GarretKadeDupre has not yet responded

  
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