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Author Topic:   Why did God forgive our sins?
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 403 of 479 (729594)
06-15-2014 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 402 by NoNukes
06-14-2014 11:34 AM


Re: The Freewill Defense
NoNukes writes:
My personal belief is that it is simply not possible to create a universe that includes both free will without having the possibility of evil. So the evil, if it is attributable to God, must then for the act of creating a universe at all.
You are assuming that the thing you call evil is a rational choice we can all make on even terms, but we now know that the deck being dealt us is rigged. If you happen to be born to a heroine addicted, black, single mother on a sink estate your chances of not seriously sinning are low. Find yourself with a defective brain such that right and wrong are never normalised and you have every chance of becoming a serial killer or a very effective CEO of a bank.
Well on balance I think existence is better than non existence, so given a choice between a universe with evil in it and a universe in which everyone is an automaton, I prefer this one even knowing the evil that mean do. I don't find the choice something I'd hesitate over for even a moment.
Is this a false dichotomy? Is it really impossible to build a universe where kill or be killed isn't the rule of survival? It seems to me that this god of yours simply built a gladitorial pit to watch us all fight amongst ourselves for his own pleasure whilst loading the dice to make it more entertaining. Now THAT is evil.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by NoNukes, posted 06-14-2014 11:34 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 420 of 479 (729695)
06-17-2014 1:34 AM
Reply to: Message 418 by Phat
06-16-2014 5:30 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:
You have never taken the Christian concept of asking GOD into your heart.....
Christians bleat on about this as though it actually meant something. I have no idea what it means and no-one has ever explained it without using delusional and poetic language.
If you *are* actually in communion with god, please let him know that he can enter my heart any time he likes; I'd love to hear from him. Tell him that it's a silly fairy tale concept that you have to believe in him before he'll speak to you. Remind him how effective it was with that guy on the road to Damascus - he's already beta tested the process, it's time to roll it out before the competition overwhelms him.
I'm waiting.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 418 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 5:30 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 423 by Phat, posted 06-17-2014 12:02 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 426 of 479 (729709)
06-17-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 423 by Phat
06-17-2014 12:02 PM


Re: The Freewill Defense
Phat writes:
Even though you have said that you were atheist, I respect the idea that you are open to communion. That is a big step for someone who doubts the idea of God and who doubts the possibility that a Creator gives a hoot about us. Much respect.
I wouldn't get too respectful; I'm just rational. If this god that talks to you started talking to me, after seeking psychiatric help and ruling out mental illness, I'd be forced to listen. I'm not an atheist for dogmatic reasons; I'm an atheist because there's no rational reason for belief.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 423 by Phat, posted 06-17-2014 12:02 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 428 of 479 (821919)
10-15-2017 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 427 by Phat
10-15-2017 12:19 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:
So does that mean that you, unlike tangle, are not open to communion?
Who says I not open to communion? Your god can get in touch anytime he likes; apparently he has my number but is ex-directory so I don't have his.
I've asked this question several time - how come god only chooses to speak to some people and not others?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 427 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:19 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 430 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:31 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 433 of 479 (821928)
10-15-2017 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 430 by Phat
10-15-2017 12:31 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:
Is it necessary to create God in order to believe in Him?
Well it's rather difficult to believe in something that you can't even imagine or name isn't it? It has to exist as an idea for anyone to believe in anything.
Is is necessary to even believe at all?
What a bizarre question - of course it isn't, millions don't.
Can doing the best you can to help others be enough to pass any arbitrary test of what it means to be a Christian?
I haven't the first clue what that means, it's religious bubble-talk.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 430 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 12:31 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 435 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:24 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 436 of 479 (821934)
10-15-2017 2:35 PM
Reply to: Message 435 by Phat
10-15-2017 2:24 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:
Everyone has beliefs.
Do they? Speaking for myself I have hopes rather than beliefs. But we were talking about god and Christianity, so no, not everyone.
You dont know the final destiny of humanity, for example.
But why does that matter? Is it important to know that? It doesn't matter a jot to me that I don't know the final destiny of humanity.
Dont you believe that we will survive or find a way to do so or are you simply relying on facts and evidence....because if you are, there is no answer...only probabilities.
But why worry about such stuff? It's just a mental torment. You have absolutely no control over it and you're only here for a while, you personally have so many real things to get control over - forget all this for ever stuff and worrying about the future of all mankind. All we can do is the best for ourselves, family and friends and then if we're lucky something for a wider audience. Fix your own roof first and stop agonising over the impossible.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 435 by Phat, posted 10-15-2017 2:24 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 10-17-2017 10:55 AM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 444 of 479 (822013)
10-17-2017 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Phat
10-17-2017 10:55 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:
Lucky? Seriously? There is no such thing.
Of all the things you could have picked out of my post, you picked this one, why?
Of course there's such a thing called luck. It's pure luck you are alive at all.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 443 by Phat, posted 10-17-2017 10:55 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 445 by Phat, posted 10-18-2017 12:27 PM Tangle has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 446 of 479 (822067)
10-18-2017 1:17 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by Phat
10-18-2017 12:27 PM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:
I'm talking probability.
Yes, but I can't make out why.
And there is a difference between measurable probability which has real criteria and a fanciful hypothetical probability of which there is no way to measure and thus quantify.
Sure, but so what?
Let's take the Yellowstone volcano. There is measurable probability connected with forecasting a future eruption.
There isn't. There is absolutely no way of knowing what the odds of Yellowstone blowing up at any particular time are.
We have a range (600,000 to 700,000 years. )
We don't. What we have is some knowledge of how many times and when Yellowstone has errupted. That can't tell us anything about the odds of it happening on Friday. I think you you're confusing real probability, like a dice where we know the chances of every event occurring because we can count them and unknowns like Yellowstone when someone baldy claims that because it blew up 1,000,000 years ago then it's due to blow up in the next ten years. We can't know that.
And without probability, there is no such thing as luck or chance.
If you're in Yellowstone when it blows up we'd quite rightly say it was bad luck wouldn't we? We had no way of calculating the probability of it errupting on our trip, so the fact that it did was just bad luck wasn't it?
But I don't get why you're so hung up on this probability thing at all, is it the gambling problem?

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by Phat, posted 10-18-2017 12:27 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 449 of 479 (822090)
10-19-2017 3:15 AM
Reply to: Message 448 by Phat
10-19-2017 2:25 AM


Re: Speaking in Jaberwocky
Phat writes:
If by luck or chance you mean random
It's a bounded randomness. It's random if you get a 6 when rolling a dice once but we know that the chance of you doing so was 1 in 6. But we also know that you can never roll a 7. We also know that the chance of rolling 2 sixes in a row are less than rolling just one, so if you set out to roll two sixes and achieve it, we call that luck. And because we know the bounds of what was possible we can say exactly how lucky you were.
chance in and of itself has no power in and of itself to cause any sort of an outcome.
I think you're just messing with words here. Chance or probability has predictive power but it doesn't do anything to cause the outcome. A individual outcome of rolling a dice is random (this isn't quite true - if we understood all the forces acting on the die we could theoretically know the outcome, but it's good enough for us.) but knowing that the chance of it coming up 6 in 1 in 6 can't affect the outcome of a single roll.
Thus to say that something happens by chance is really saying nothing.
Well that's just wrong. If something is happening by chance, we know that it's not happening in a predictable pattern. That's very, very useful, it seperates noise from communication for example. If you want to find evidence of alien civilisations, look for non-random signals.
Chance has no power.
Tell that to the casinos. Knowing what the probabilities are for a roulette wheel ensures that the house has the power to always win in the end. But chance itself is just what we call what we're observing - it's not a thing in itself.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Phat, posted 10-19-2017 2:25 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 450 by Pressie, posted 10-19-2017 5:14 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 474 of 479 (825290)
12-11-2017 3:05 PM
Reply to: Message 473 by Phat
12-11-2017 2:29 PM


Re: Aussie Questions
Phat writes:
If he simply expects me to quit creating the God that I want and to go get busy doing things for other people, he misses out on the fact that I NEED to have and get as much as I need to help and give. I simply don't have the strength in me to throw away the Comforter and to start comforting others.
You have invested an enormous amount of effort in creating the cause of your discomfort. All you have to do is live a decent life, you don't have to go to church, pray to mysterious beings, believe the impossible and worry about future worlds. Just live a decent life.
A decent life doesn't mean running around stressing about helping everyone else either - it just means looking after yourself and doing what you can. You've made it all very complicated.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien. I am Mancunian. I am Brum. I am London.I am Finland. Soy Barcelona
"Life, don't talk to me about life" - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 473 by Phat, posted 12-11-2017 2:29 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
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