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Author Topic:   Age Correlations and An Old Earth, Version 2 No 1
Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


(1)
Message 391 of 1498 (730601)
06-29-2014 12:01 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by OS
06-29-2014 11:51 AM


Think of going to a major university and spending a few days paging through Chemical Abstracts, for a starter. Start about 1950, or maybe even 1930. I'm going to bet that plenty of carbon has been bombarded by protons, and that there are PhD theses on the results. Take a lunch - though you may have to leave it outside the building.
Just because something is scientific knowledge, there is no guarantee that it is on the internet. A lot of science was done before 1995. Though Google Scholar could turn up something..

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JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 392 of 1498 (730602)
06-29-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 381 by OS
06-29-2014 11:05 AM


Whic has nothing to do with his claim that supercooling would turn 40Ar into 40K.
Try again, I didn't make that claim. I was investigating possibilities. Did you notice Ar-41 and Ar-42 also?
A common characteristic of nutjobs is not keeping their stories straight.
Decays of Argon-40 to Potassium-40 could be made by supercooling.
It hasn't been tried, especially with proton bombardment. How would you know then?
We understand the process. I don't know if it's been tested; not all incredibly stupid ideas are worth testing.
Another characteristic of nutjobs is never admitting error. You claimed you never said 40Ar could be turned into 40K; when I demonstrated your error you ignored it. An honest person would have said "Oh, yeah, I did say that".
And what's this "especially with proton bombardment" stuff"? Remember you wrote:
Decays of Argon-40 to Potassium-40 could be made by supercooling. I don't know if rapid protons would be necessary.
Now you're saying that it's likely proton bombardment is necessary? Can't keep your story straight. And protons?? 40K decays to 40Ar by emitting a gamma ray and a neutrino.

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 Message 381 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 11:05 AM OS has replied

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OS
Member (Idle past 3271 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 393 of 1498 (730603)
06-29-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 387 by Coyote
06-29-2014 11:48 AM


Re: Have you researched?
I think it has more to do with bodily processes, but I am thinking I confused myself about results from corpses and wood.

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 Message 387 by Coyote, posted 06-29-2014 11:48 AM Coyote has replied

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 394 of 1498 (730604)
06-29-2014 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by OS
06-29-2014 12:07 PM


Re: Have you researched?
I think it has more to do with bodily processes, but I am thinking I confused myself about results from corpses and wood.
You really should do a thorough review of the basic literature on C14.
You are confusing different concepts pretty badly.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

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OS
Member (Idle past 3271 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 395 of 1498 (730606)
06-29-2014 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 392 by JonF
06-29-2014 12:06 PM


Another characteristic of nutjobs is never admitting error. You claimed you never said 40Ar could be turned into 40K;
Notice I didn't say that, but implied it. This is all shown by your quotes.
Now you're saying that it's likely proton bombardment is necessary?
Ar-40 is a stable isotope. I don't think it would be stupid to try, but it would be complicated, an it might not be as successful as with other Argon isotopes.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 401 by NoNukes, posted 06-29-2014 1:23 PM OS has replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 168 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


(1)
Message 396 of 1498 (730607)
06-29-2014 12:13 PM
Reply to: Message 382 by OS
06-29-2014 11:10 AM


Re: amusement value
Except that we KNOW that exponential decay matches the evidence and linear decay doesn't.
No, you really don't. It is a thermodynamic calculation
It's a statistical calculation, and exponential decay has been observed literally millions of time. Linear decay has never been observed.
and there is nothing to suggest isotopic concentrations don't have full lives.
WTF? I take it you don't understand the concept of half-life?

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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 397 of 1498 (730609)
06-29-2014 12:20 PM


These might help
Note: I haven't verified the links lately.
ReligiousTolerance.org Carbon-14 Dating (C-14): Beliefs of New-Earth Creationists
Radiometric Dating: A Christian Perspective by Dr. Roger C. Wiens.
This site, BiblicalChronologist.org has a series of good articles on radiocarbon dating.
Tree Ring and C14 Dating
Radiocarbon WEB-info Radiocarbon Laboratory, University of Waikato, New Zealand.
Radiocarbon -- full text of issues, 1959-2003.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 398 of 1498 (730610)
06-29-2014 12:23 PM
Reply to: Message 393 by OS
06-29-2014 12:07 PM


definitely confused
I think it has more to do with bodily processes, ...
Another amusing fantasy.
... but I am thinking I confused myself about results from corpses and wood.
And more than likely confused about the purpose of 14C dating of corpses (or other organic matter) and the purpose of 14C dating wood (tree rings used to calibrate the 14C process).
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
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to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

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Tanypteryx
Member
Posts: 4344
From: Oregon, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006
Member Rating: 5.9


(1)
Message 399 of 1498 (730615)
06-29-2014 12:40 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by OS
06-29-2014 12:13 PM


Ar-40 is a stable isotope. I don't think it would be stupid to try, but it would be complicated, an it might not be as successful as with other Argon isotopes.
Why bother? What possible relevance could the outcome of that experiment have on the topic of this thread "Age Correlations and An Old Earth"?
Your odd, disjointed ramblings remind me of Tesla, a former member here who also could not write a coherent sentence.

What if Eleanor Roosevelt had wings? -- Monty Python
One important characteristic of a theory is that is has survived repeated attempts to falsify it. Contrary to your understanding, all available evidence confirms it. --Subbie
If evolution is shown to be false, it will be at the hands of things that are true, not made up. --percy

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herebedragons
Member (Idle past 858 days)
Posts: 1517
From: Michigan
Joined: 11-22-2009


(2)
Message 400 of 1498 (730616)
06-29-2014 12:44 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by OS
06-29-2014 11:51 AM


I have done everything I can think of so far
I have been reading though this thread, and honestly, I have no idea what you are trying to establish here. Are you just saying random things related to radiometric dating or is there actually some point you are trying to establish???
I think the whole discussion would benefit if you took a minute and clearly made your case so that it is clear what your position is and what you are trying to accomplish through this discussion.
HBD

Whoever calls me ignorant shares my own opinion. Sorrowfully and tacitly I recognize my ignorance, when I consider how much I lack of what my mind in its craving for knowledge is sighing for... I console myself with the consideration that this belongs to our common nature. - Francesco Petrarca
"Nothing is easier than to persuade people who want to be persuaded and already believe." - another Petrarca gem.
Ignorance is a most formidable opponent rivaled only by arrogance; but when the two join forces, one is all but invincible.

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NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 401 of 1498 (730624)
06-29-2014 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 395 by OS
06-29-2014 12:13 PM


Ar-40 is a stable isotope. I don't think it would be stupid to try, but it would be complicated, an it might not be as successful as with other Argon isotopes.
If you bombared Ar40 with protons, what isotope would you expect to produce? Hint: not K40.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 395 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 12:13 PM OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 402 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 1:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
OS
Member (Idle past 3271 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 402 of 1498 (730631)
06-29-2014 1:41 PM
Reply to: Message 401 by NoNukes
06-29-2014 1:23 PM


According to some papers, it seemed, Calcium-40 and I would add a neutron.
I misred the paper. I would have said potassium-41.
No, I really don't know. You have to have the physical environment perfect and sometimes there are by-products.
Your answer is probably more in depth.
Edit: I found a few article which support 41K for sure, and some seem to say 41Ar is possible. I would have to look at it closely though.
Edit: nope 41K is the isotope alone.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 401 by NoNukes, posted 06-29-2014 1:23 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 403 by NoNukes, posted 06-29-2014 6:26 PM OS has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 403 of 1498 (730679)
06-29-2014 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 402 by OS
06-29-2014 1:41 PM


Edit: nope 41K is the isotope alone
Okay.
But let's assume instead that a proton involvement was possible and that it would reverse the decay of 40K. What would be the effect of such a bombardment on radiometric dating? Would testing without knowing about the bombardment produce dates that are too high or too low?
And my final question? So what's your point?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 402 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 1:41 PM OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 404 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 7:25 PM NoNukes has replied

  
OS
Member (Idle past 3271 days)
Posts: 67
Joined: 06-22-2014


Message 404 of 1498 (730686)
06-29-2014 7:25 PM
Reply to: Message 403 by NoNukes
06-29-2014 6:26 PM


I wanted to prove Ar40 is difficult to produce or happens easily sometimes, and thus unlikely to be indicate ages. I went to far by wondering if the reverse direction was easier.
There is a way to reverse it, but it is strange and seems to take more effort. So the only thing I can say, and it goes against conventional understanding, is that 40K/40Ar decay requires a neutron and the expulsion of a proton.
Is there such a decay or is it 39K/40Ar? Yet my skepticism probably sounds silly.
Edited by OS, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 403 by NoNukes, posted 06-29-2014 6:26 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 405 by Coyote, posted 06-29-2014 7:34 PM OS has replied
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Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 405 of 1498 (730687)
06-29-2014 7:34 PM
Reply to: Message 404 by OS
06-29-2014 7:25 PM


From your post it sounds like you are hoping to stumble upon some reason to conclude that old earth dating methods are incorrect.
Would this be a correct summary?

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 404 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 7:25 PM OS has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 406 by OS, posted 06-29-2014 7:45 PM Coyote has replied

  
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