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Author Topic:   Continuation of Flood Discussion
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1171 of 1304 (733134)
07-14-2014 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 1169 by edge
07-14-2014 11:30 AM


Re: Legoland
Ah, okay. Not into my first cup of coffee yet...
I'm about to start on my second large mug.
Anyway, there is a little bit of a caveat here. To cover very steep topography, such as shown in the picture, it would either have to be the filling of a lake or very rapid sea level rise.
Right, you aren't going to get an angular unconformity here noway nohow.
If the former, you would have spatially restricted deposits, such as the Green River Formation.
If the latter, you would usually have erosion of the entire region closer to sea level, such as in places like coastal plains, so that total relief would be less and the area would be inundated more quickly. It is hard for me to imagine this topography being overrun by the sea without a whole lot of erosion first. Even the valleys here are quite high in elevation.
Yup. No angular unconformity noway nohow.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1169 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 11:30 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1174 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 11:44 AM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1172 of 1304 (733135)
07-14-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 1167 by Faith
07-14-2014 11:16 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
Oddly enough, I suppose, I don't start with any such premise, I am truly starting from observation of all those diagrams and pictures I've seen and they fit that scenario.
So, you don't start with a biblical perspective? I'm sorry but that stretches my credulity.
Eroding the lumpy surface flat enough for deposition to lay down neat horizontal layers that don't have to fill in the valleys is already beyond the possible (and if you can't see valleys in that diagram there's something wrong with your eyes), ...
Then you need to explain what Percy just pointed out. The island of Shinumo Quartzite which penetrates upward, through the Tapeats.
... and such deposition could only happen by water anyway and where is that going to come from?
As I said the quartzite formed a resistant ridge around which the Tapeats was deposited. In fact, that means that it was already very resistant (lithified) at the time attesting to its relatively older age.
Oh I know: in millions of years we can count on ANYTHING we need to satisfy the theory.
And this is a problem?
Meanwhile we've got, in four diagrams so far (GC-GS, Great Britain cross section, Percy's of the Gulf of Mexico, and this one of Utah) what I've been calling the Geologic Column, all those layers that would have originally been stacked neatly and horizontally, obviously to a great depth in all those examples, probably in all cases even up to the Holocene level though that isn't apparent on this latest one or the one of Great Britain (just because they aren't labeled), still probably very close because that's a LOT of layers represented there. Anyway, four places where there was this original stack of horizontal layers that do customarily get labeled with time periods in the hundreds of millions, and after they are all laid down then and only then are they distorted: eroded, folded, sagging into a salt layer and so on.
And the problem is?
I have asked you repeatedly for some kind of principle that requires deformation to occur in every location on earth. You have failed to do so.
There must be more out there. And you all just blithely imagine more layers getting laid down on top of this formation. I find that eyepoppingly ludicrous and don't see why you don't.
And yet we see it all the time...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1167 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:16 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1175 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:47 AM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1173 of 1304 (733136)
07-14-2014 11:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1165 by Percy
07-14-2014 11:05 AM


Re: Legoland
Yes, any deposition SHOULD fill in the gaps but as a matter of fact angular unconformities do not fill in the gaps and dips and valleys. They are shown and interpreted to be deposited on surfaces that have eroded down almost completely flat -- with the exception of a bump or two perhaps such as the Shinumo quartzite. That's true of the Great Unconformity and it's true of Siccar Point and I can't think of an exception. You show the Utah diagram completely flattened for the completely flat horizontal layers you imagine being deposited there in some millions of years. I'm told over and over again that erosion can flatten a surface like that, even with upended strata of various hardnesses, and over and over again I am boggled at such an idea.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1165 by Percy, posted 07-14-2014 11:05 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1177 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 11:50 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1223 by Percy, posted 07-15-2014 10:37 AM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1174 of 1304 (733137)
07-14-2014 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1171 by Faith
07-14-2014 11:35 AM


Re: Legoland
Right, you aren't going to get an angular unconformity here noway nohow.
Except that lakes have shorelines and streams entering them from surrounding land masses.
Yup. No angular unconformity noway nohow.
Heh, heh... That was predictable.
The problem is that in some cases that eroded region was previously deformed. In fact, the boundary of the Colorado Plateau shows this quite plainly. And, for the untrained, angular unconformities are not the only kind of unconformity.
But I really enjoy the depth of your argument and how you support your 'noway, nohow' statements.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1171 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1176 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:50 AM edge has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1175 of 1304 (733140)
07-14-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 1172 by edge
07-14-2014 11:39 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
I have asked you repeatedly for some kind of principle that requires deformation to occur in every location on earth. You have failed to do so.
The principle would of course be that the layers were laid down in the Flood, after which tectonic, volcanic and other disturbances eroded and distorted the strata. What else? There should be differences in how different regions were affected but there should be some evidence to show this pattern everywhere.
However, I'm focusing on finding EXAMPLES of where this has in fact occurred. Four so far. So far you've disputed it but haven't shown anything that contradicts it in reality.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1172 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 11:39 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1179 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 11:54 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1176 of 1304 (733141)
07-14-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1174 by edge
07-14-2014 11:44 AM


Re: Legoland
But I really enjoy the depth of your argument and how you support your 'noway, nohow' statements.
No need in this case, you did it for me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1174 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 11:44 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1178 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 11:51 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1177 of 1304 (733142)
07-14-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 1173 by Faith
07-14-2014 11:43 AM


Re: Legoland
Yes, any deposition SHOULD fill in the gaps but as a matter of fact angular unconformities do not fill in the gaps and dips and valleys. They are shown and interpreted to be deposited on surfaces that have eroded down almost completely flat -- with the exception of a bump or two perhaps such as the Shinumo quartzite.
Yes, that nasty data keeps getting in the way of preconceived notions. Just 'little bumps'. I'm sure you can safely ignore them. Here is a little more detail from Siccar Point.
As it shows the more resistant layers form ridges in the unconformity surface just as we would expect from erosion.
Here is a detailed schematic of the Siccar Point occurrence:
Note the infilling where the recessive layers are more deeply weathered.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.
Edited by edge, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1173 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:43 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1182 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 12:11 PM edge has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1178 of 1304 (733143)
07-14-2014 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 1176 by Faith
07-14-2014 11:50 AM


Re: Legoland
No need in this case, you did it for me.
If you cant' explain why, I'll understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1176 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:50 AM Faith has not replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1179 of 1304 (733144)
07-14-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 1175 by Faith
07-14-2014 11:47 AM


Re: Geological Time Scale REQUIRES ascent to make sense
The principle would of course be that the layers were laid down in the Flood, after which tectonic, volcanic and other disturbances eroded and distorted the strata. What else?
That's not a priciple, it's a story line.
There should be differences in how different regions were affected but there should be some evidence to show this pattern everywhere.
Except when there aren't. I have already shown you evidence of erosion occurring during your flood period.
However, I'm focusing on finding EXAMPLES of where this has in fact occurred. Four so far. So far you've disputed it but haven't shown anything that contradicts it in reality.
It's very hard to contradict dogma to the dogmatic.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1175 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 11:47 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1180 of 1304 (733145)
07-14-2014 11:59 AM
Reply to: Message 1150 by Faith
07-14-2014 3:31 AM


Re: Legoland
Faith writes:
But there is no intact stack any more, it's eroded, tilted, folded, there is no place to put your Lego that would build on the original stack that once was horizontal and climbed through all the time periods up to the one where you could put your Lego.
Why on earth does the stack have to be "intact"? I can take Legos off, put Legos on, take Legos off... I can rebuild the entire stack from bottom to top and I can still add another Lego to the top. Y'kow why?
Because there's always a top.
All you need to add something to the top is a top. It doesn't matter one bit what's under the top. The top is always on top.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1150 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 3:31 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1183 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 12:14 PM ringo has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 1181 of 1304 (733147)
07-14-2014 12:05 PM


nightmare landscape, China
Once horizontal though, then distorted.

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1182 of 1304 (733150)
07-14-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 1177 by edge
07-14-2014 11:50 AM


Re: Legoland
The diagram doesn't represent anything I see in the photograph.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1177 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 11:50 AM edge has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1184 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 12:16 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 1186 by edge, posted 07-14-2014 12:28 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1470 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1183 of 1304 (733151)
07-14-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 1180 by ringo
07-14-2014 11:59 AM


Re: Legoland
Oh well, if you don't see why the ORIGINAL top is where the column has to continue building I guess all I can do is laugh.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1180 by ringo, posted 07-14-2014 11:59 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1185 by ringo, posted 07-14-2014 12:18 PM Faith has replied

  
edge
Member (Idle past 1732 days)
Posts: 4696
From: Colorado, USA
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 1184 of 1304 (733152)
07-14-2014 12:16 PM
Reply to: Message 1182 by Faith
07-14-2014 12:11 PM


Re: Legoland
The diagram doesn't represent anything I see in the photograph.
It is of the unconformity. From what I can see, it was drawn in 1920.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1182 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 12:11 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 438 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1185 of 1304 (733153)
07-14-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 1183 by Faith
07-14-2014 12:14 PM


Re: Legoland
Faith writes:
Oh well, if you don't see why the ORIGINAL top is where the column has to continue building I guess all I can do is laugh.
What on earth does the original top have to do with anything? Why can't I stick another Lego on the current top?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1183 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 12:14 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1191 by Faith, posted 07-14-2014 12:52 PM ringo has replied

  
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