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Author | Topic: Would you give up your place in heaven... | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined:
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Phat writes:
You keep saying that AND you keep refusing to answer the question: Why is it that those who claim to have the impartation often don't show the love?
... we need Jesus (or Gods) impartation to even be able to have the necessary love. Phat writes:
We're all broken and imperfect. That's not an excuse for doing nothing. Even Noah was responsible for his own salvation. ... my point is that He died (and lived) for broken imperfect people...not for do-gooders who are willing and able to lay their lives down...macho style....like a fearless commando taking a bullet to protect ten. (What he should have done was jam a bunch of his broken and imperfect neighbours into the ark.)
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subbie Member (Idle past 1280 days) Posts: 3509 Joined:
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Jesus sacrificed His life for the benefit of all of us No he didn't. He gave up part of a weekend. Not a long weekend, not even the whole weekend. He gave up part of a weekend. Big hairy deal.Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Keep in mind that for the son of a Deity who is human,the suffering was as bad as it would be for any other human. Its not as if He knew what it felt like to be eternal. You seem to see it as God dying and coming back to life...like a magic trick for a Deity. Jesus still experienced the event from a human perspective...He was not like superman
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Good question. We need communion. We cant do it all ourselves and He wont do it all for us. Donald miller sheds some insight into his belief on the subject:
Why is it that those who claim to have the impartation often don't show the love? quote:People who attribute all the credit to God often dont hold up their end of the bargain. It may be true that God gave us the ability to breathe (metaphorically) but it is our responsibility to move and act. He doesnt automatically control us.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1280 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
So what? He still didn't give his life. He gave a day and a half.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Lets say it was you or I. Say we were on a rack and our bodies got pulled apart. We would suffer and die...regardless if we came back to life in a day or two or a week....the resurrection is symbolic of our lives getting redeemed...we would still experience the death.
And it would still hurt a lot. We would never forget it even if it was only a few hours out of our lives.
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Clearly not, since those who are supposedly in communion are no better than those who are not.
We need communion. Phat writes:
But we're the only ones we can count on to do anything.
We cant do it all ourselves... Phat writes:
Remember what the thread is about: exchanging what He does for us with what He does to others.
... and He wont do it all for us. Phat writes:
Then what's the point of attributing anything to God?
People who attribute all the credit to God often dont hold up their end of the bargain.
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subbie Member (Idle past 1280 days) Posts: 3509 Joined: |
I'm not minimizing the pain and suffering that one endures during crucifixion. I'm just pointing out that he didn't give his life. He gave a day and a half.
Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate Howling about evidence is a conversation stopper, and it never stops to think if the claim could possibly be true -- foreveryoung
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New Cat's Eye Inactive Member |
I'm just pointing out that he didn't give his life. He gave a day and a half. Kinda makes you wonder why he would sweat blood in anticipation...
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Ringo writes: So lets think a minute...all of the reprobates on earth drowned except for a chosen group of reprobates allowed into the Ark. Even Noah was responsible for his own salvation.(What he should have done was jam a bunch of his broken and imperfect neighbours into the ark.) This brings up questions.
Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Well, let's not waste too much time trying to make sense of the Flood story.
So lets think a minute... Phat writes:
In the Flood story, God chooses who will live and who will die. Apparently, the criterion he used was that "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God." (Genesis 6:9) Does God save us(empower us, cleanse us, choose us..etc...) or do we willfully become better people...of our own initiative. Later on, apparently of their own initiative, Noah and his descendants descended into the same reprobate behaviour, making the whole Flood exercise a failure. We have to wonder about God's ability to choose.
Phat writes:
We have only God's Word for it that He chose the right ones to save. We also have His Word for it that it didn't work.
If the latter, I could see the sinful neighbors being given another chance. Phat writes:
Some would argue that we don't (and cant) save ourselves. In which case rescuing the evil neighbors would be pointless...quote:Sometimes you gotta do what's right, even if it's pointless.
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Phat Member Posts: 18335 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Sometimes you gotta do what's right, even if it's pointless. Who determines whats right? Lets say you were invited to a lavish party by someone who knew you rather well. Do you give your invitation to someone whom your host may not know?Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain
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kjsimons Member Posts: 822 From: Orlando,FL Joined: Member Rating: 5.3 |
ringo writes: Later on, apparently of their own initiative, Noah and his descendants descended into the same reprobate behaviour, making the whole Flood exercise a failure. I hadn't really ever thought of the fludd and the eventual outcome that way. It's really does reflect poorly on the god of the old testament and does beg the question of why would he do it if it was destined to fail?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
Phat writes:
Our consciences.
Who determines whats right? Phat writes:
That depends on the circumstances. Personally, I don't like lavish parties so I'd do anything to avoid it. If I thought somebody else might "benefit" from the party more than I would, it would make sense to send them. If the host objected to me sending a substitute, he's no friend of mine.
Lets say you were invited to a lavish party by someone who knew you rather well.Do you give your invitation to someone whom your host may not know?
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ringo Member (Idle past 438 days) Posts: 20940 From: frozen wasteland Joined: |
kjsimons writes:
If you try to make sense of the Bible, you wind up with nonsensical conclusions, such as birds riding on the heads of dinosaurs. So if you can take something useful from a Bible story you should cut and run before you get mired in the details. It's really does reflect poorly on the god of the old testament and does beg the question of why would he do it if it was destined to fail? The Flood story might tell you that God will save you if you trust in Him. Or it might tell you that you have to build your own ark. What it should NOT tell you is that it really happened.
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