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Author | Topic: Would you give up your place in heaven... | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
cavediver writes: If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten? Yes. I would trust that God knew what He was doing.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Iano writes: But what about my love for God? Is my love for God greater than my love for family? Surely God would understand
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
cavediver writes: ..if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven? Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another. If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten? Thats quite a choice! I suppose that God would be testing me...but I don't see how my going to "Hell" would be a good example. Theoretically and hypothetically, the answer is an obvious altruistic choice. Yes, any good person would take a bullet for the rescue of ten. Practically, however, this question makes no sense. If these ten went to Heaven, would they suddenly have the opportunity to "meet" God? If so, could they still hypothetically reject Him and could they still stay and attend the party?
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ikabod writes: Which brings up a point. Do people earn their way to this heaven based on their behavior or merit or based on Gods mercy? can we not require of such a being higher standards than we can achieve ... even if only in intent . The ten worthy people may well be worthy by human standards. In order to give up our own spot we must have either earned it or have thought that we were recipients of some Divine Grace of some sort....so.... giving up ones spot is a symbolic gesture like standing on the bus or light rail so that others may sit.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Cavediver writes:
whereupon I replied.... ...if it meant that ten others destined for everlasting torment could be granted a place in heaven? Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another. If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten?Phat writes: Thats quite a choice! I suppose that God would be testing me...but I don't see how my going to "Hell" would be a good example. Theoretically and hypothetically, the answer is an obvious altruistic choice. Yes, any good person would take a bullet for the rescue of ten. Practically, however, this question makes no sense. If these ten went to Heaven, would they suddenly have the opportunity to "meet" God? If so, could they still hypothetically reject Him and could they still stay and attend the party? Then Wiz jumps into the fray.....Theistic Mike writes: Good point. Firstly - what is heaven? Those who have Christ already have the Kingdom because it is within. How can someone desire to live in heaven if it is inherently foreign to them? Yet if they are perfectly righteous - it couldn't be foreign to them, and they would know Christ. This hypothetic can only be answered biblically, assuming biblical truth under Christian theology. It is therefore hard to give an answer an atheist would understand in the way we understand it as believers. Hello, Wiz! (BTW ) I suppose that once I took the punishment meant for these ten altruistic infidels, whatever happened between them and God was bought and paid for by my sacrifice. It would be interesting, however, to see the resulting interaction between them and a God they didn't believe in. "All that we call human history--money, poverty, ambition, war, prostitution, classes, empires, slavery--[is] the long terrible story of man trying to find something other than God which will make him happy."--C.S.Lewis * * * * * * * * * * “The world has achieved brilliance without wisdom, power without conscience. Ours is a world of nuclear giants and ethical infants.”--General Omar Bradley * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * "The free man owns himself. He can damage himself with either eating or drinking; he can ruin himself with gambling. If he does he is certainly a damn fool, and he might possibly be a damned soul; but if he may not, he is not a free man any more than a dog." -GK Chesterson
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Wiz writes: Good point.
there is a contradiction in terms, because we can't as believers give up what God means by righteouss, for the sake of what humans consider righteouss. cavediver writes: Let's say that these ten are some of the most selfless, moral, charitable people on earth - they just happened not to choose Jesus as their saviour. Perhaps they are atheists, hindus, devout muslims, whatever - they have all heard the Christian message and rejected it for one reason or another. If God gave you the free choice, would you go to hell for these ten? If God gave me the choice...I would know that God was supportive of my choice and thus would go. It would be evil, however, if the ten, upon meeting Jesus...still rejected Him. In fact, if that happened, I would trust God to bring me back. The ten, apparently, chose their destiny. The real question is if they would be allowed to stay in Heaven after rejecting Jesus.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Because I gave my life in eternity ...with Jesus...for them to go instead, and they were too proud and independent to allow the Creator of all seen and unseen to welcome them into His world.
They wouldn't belong in Heaven. One cant simply have a spot all their own in such a place. In fact, the whole sin of rejecting God boils down to selfishness. Wanting to be allowed to live in your own little corner...in a house built by someone else and eternity bought and paid for by someone else---and still be stubborn enough not to acknowledge the gift!! Meanwhile, down in hell, I would probably be eternally miserable unless I could strike a deal allowing me to c ease to exist rather than go through what is described as eternal torment...(perhaps lament?? )
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Dont you understand? There is no such thing as "your own". No man is an island nor does any man really own one. We are all renters in this universe, whether we believe the landlord exists or not.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Gods logic is the exact opposite, however. Look at Shepherd who leaves a herd of 99 sheep in order to rescue 1 solitary sheep.
God might leave a herd of 7 billion in order to find you. What can you do for Him to be worth 7 billion souls?
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Obviously then my belief would be wrong. The idea that Heaven wouldn't include Jesus, however, brings up an entire alternative understanding of what Heaven was all about. Perhaps it would thus be like a giant rehab center for broken people, since every bit of what we know about the character of Jesus shows Him to be above reproach.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
All I am saying is that we can never do enough for God. I never said we shouldnt try. I never said we should simply shirk our duties to humanity since we are imperfect.
All I am saying is that God cares as much about one soul as He does multiple souls.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The analogy is obvious...Jesus sacrificed His life for the benefit of all of us---thus would we do the same for many others...but critics assert that it was not as much of a sacrifice for the Son of God seing as He already was eternally in Heaven and would never be booted out so that we all could get in...though other commentators mention that even a moment away from communion is a huge sacrifice that we humans would never understand. I would never make a sacrifice simply out of altruistic love for others---quite honestly I dont have that much love naturally for the rest of humanity....and I wouldnt sacrifice for ten otherwise good people who had no interest in meeting the host of the venue. I guess im just too selfish.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
The whole point---which you likely disagree with since you are a works oriented type of guy---is that we need Jesus (or Gods) impartation to even be able to have the necessary love. Its not a matter of willing oneself to do the impossible and achieve the necessary altruistic effort. Anyone who is honest would likely admit that they dont have what it takes, though some would argue that we can do it ourselves. I maintain that we cannot.
As for why He would want us...(or nah) my point is that He died (and lived) for broken imperfect people...not for do-gooders who are willing and able to lay their lives down...macho style....like a fearless commando taking a bullet to protect ten.
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
Keep in mind that for the son of a Deity who is human,the suffering was as bad as it would be for any other human. Its not as if He knew what it felt like to be eternal. You seem to see it as God dying and coming back to life...like a magic trick for a Deity. Jesus still experienced the event from a human perspective...He was not like superman
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Phat Member Posts: 18343 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
ringo writes: Good question. We need communion. We cant do it all ourselves and He wont do it all for us. Donald miller sheds some insight into his belief on the subject:
Why is it that those who claim to have the impartation often don't show the love? quote:People who attribute all the credit to God often dont hold up their end of the bargain. It may be true that God gave us the ability to breathe (metaphorically) but it is our responsibility to move and act. He doesnt automatically control us.
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