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Author Topic:   Working Hypothesis -- what is the value?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 92 (735644)
08-20-2014 9:37 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by RAZD
08-19-2014 10:27 AM


Re: Example 4 -- bridge design
And, curiously, that is why engineers in general are not scientists, because "the point is that the design is not being done for the purpose of verification of the principles, the purpose is to provide a practical use of those principals"
I'm not sure that distinction works in practice. If I were trying to find a novel to synthesize a particular organic molecule that is already known to produce a particular affect, would I be an engineer simply because I was working for a company that was looking to exploit the compound? Surely that cannot be correct.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by RAZD, posted 08-19-2014 10:27 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 08-20-2014 9:51 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 56 of 92 (735662)
08-21-2014 12:35 AM
Reply to: Message 53 by RAZD
08-20-2014 9:51 PM


Re: Example 4 -- bridge design
No that would not be correct. You would be a lab technician.
You are wrong RAZD.
A lab technician can be assigned the task of running experiments, but the person designing the novel process for synthesis and perhaps directing the experiments would not be a technician. And of course there is nothing stopping a scientist or engineer from doing his own lab work. Of course in this case, you simply jumped to the conclusion that the process designer was handling the glassware. I did not say any such thing.
Chemist - Wikipedia
quote:
A chemist is a scientist trained in the study of chemistry. Chemists study the composition of matter and its properties. Chemists carefully describe the properties they study in terms of quantities, with detail on the level of molecules and their component atoms. Chemists carefully measure substance proportions, reaction rates, and other chemical properties.
Chemists use this knowledge to learn the composition, and properties of unfamiliar substances, as well as to reproduce and synthesize large quantities of useful naturally occurring substances and create new artificial substances and useful processes.
And regarding chemical engineers:
quote:
The work of chemists is often related to the work of chemical engineers, which are primarily concerned with the proper design, construction and evaluation of the most cost-effective large-scale chemical plants and work closely with industrial chemists on the development of new processes and methods for the commercial-scale manufacture of chemicals and related products.
As far as the logical fallacy you named, no I did not make that error either.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : fix up some technican/scientist mixup stuff.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by RAZD, posted 08-20-2014 9:51 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by RAZD, posted 08-21-2014 6:37 PM NoNukes has not replied
 Message 61 by RAZD, posted 08-21-2014 6:41 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 57 of 92 (735663)
08-21-2014 12:55 AM
Reply to: Message 55 by RAZD
08-20-2014 10:12 PM


Re: for the purpose of discovering further evidence
Another would be comparing the times of the year when sightings occur and whether that would fit a pattern of (similar to polar) bear behavior in traveling to and from hibernation sites from lower elevations.
The above is not an example of something that requires deviating from the scientific method. The experiment might be done as part of a verification of h1 or in an attempt to reject h0.
quote:
To my mind it is much more compelling to consider that an unknown member of the bear family is behind the legends than some unknown member of the ape\hominid family.
Yes, I've noticed the compelling of your mind. But surely there are some alternatives far more likely than the ape\hominid possibility. How about the possibility that no single species is involved and that while some sightings may have been bears, others may have been other animals, while others may have been humans or hoaxes. It's entirely possible that there really is no yeti.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by RAZD, posted 08-20-2014 10:12 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 63 by RAZD, posted 08-21-2014 7:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 66 of 92 (735701)
08-22-2014 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 63 by RAZD
08-21-2014 7:43 PM


Sigh...
..what I see as impossible to prove\demonstrate is the premise that it is all imaginary, that no yeti ever existed, and that pretending that this is a falsification test is nothing more than denial biased thinking.
Who said anything like that? I proposed that you needed a null hypothesis without saying what that hypothesis ought to be. You are the one that said that a null hypothesis would get in the way.
I compared a non-yeti to the alternative of a hominid/ape yeti. Period. I did not propose such a thing as a null hypothesis. But surely "the yeti is actually some kind of ape" is not an appropriate null hypothesis.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 63 by RAZD, posted 08-21-2014 7:43 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 92 (735703)
08-22-2014 12:26 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by RAZD
08-21-2014 6:41 PM


Re: logic and science vs engineer
RAZD writes:
What you said was:
engineer produces a product of practical use
a person produces a product of practical use
therefore the person is an engineer
That's not at all what I said. What I actually said was that a person who designed a novel process for producing a useful chemical might well be a chemist or a chemical engineer and I invited you to make a distinction.
You decided instead to add another person to my hypothetical which allowed you to duck the question. A lab tech might still be practicing science or engineering, so in truth you did not manage to do much that was not silly.
And of course stripping out the details and worse, the context does leave you with a possible fallacy. But that's your work, not mine.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 61 by RAZD, posted 08-21-2014 6:41 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2014 8:09 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 69 of 92 (735738)
08-22-2014 8:25 PM
Reply to: Message 68 by RAZD
08-22-2014 8:09 PM


Re: logic and science vs engineer and equivocation
I appreciate you quoting the entire context, but you overlooked somehting.
RAZD writes:
: And, curiously, that is why engineers in general are not scientists, because "the point is that the design is not being done for the purpose of verification of the principles, the purpose is to provide a practical use of those principals"
NoNukes writes:
I'm not sure that distinction works in practice. If I were trying to find a novel to synthesize a particular organic molecule that is already known to produce a particular affect, would I be an engineer simply because I was working for a company that was looking to exploit the compound? Surely that cannot be correct.
It is pretty clear from the context that I was providing an example to illustrate the overlap between what a scientist does and what an engineer does and that the question I was probing was the "practical use" distinction.. It was also clear that the subject matter involved in my example was chemistry. The fact that you answered by adding the lab tech makes it pretty clear that you understood that too.
I don't apologize for picking a nit. The distinction you are trying to make is pretty nitty.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 08-22-2014 8:09 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2014 3:20 AM NoNukes has replied
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2014 12:43 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 92 (735744)
08-23-2014 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 70 by Straggler
08-23-2014 3:20 AM


Re: logic and science vs engineer and equivocation
Just to add fuel to the flames... Is genetic engineering undertaken by scientists? Or engineers?
The roof is already on fire, bro. But maybe the answer to your question is that sometimes scientists do engineering work and engineers do science work. And in some cases "sometimes" means on a day to day basis.
People educated as engineers or scientists may find that their work is scatter plotted along a spectrum with basic science on one end, applied science somewhere in the middle, and hard engineering on the far end. Many scientists make stuff, and many engineers conduct research into processes that are not on a product scale.
Here is a snippet of a conversation I found online between some chemical engineers and one particular chemist:
Engineer writes:
Sorry, but I get a little angry when a chemist tries to discount the hard work I've put into my own career. We have different contributions to projects; I respect yours, you should respect mine.
Chemist writes:
I get very angry when chemical engineers earn more than chemists but know less and contribute less and I'll respect chemical engineers only when they earn it. The two German ones I mentioned I have a huge amount of respect for because they are very good at their jobs. The others I've met I would not piss on if they were on fire and given their incompetence it would have been their own fault they were on fire.
My experience is that the very junior levels of experience and education, many science education graduates (biologists, chemists, and physicists) are underpaid compared to their peers with engineering educations, but of course my experience is with those scientists who work most closely with engineers.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 70 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2014 3:20 AM Straggler has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 92 (735752)
08-23-2014 1:55 PM
Reply to: Message 72 by RAZD
08-23-2014 12:43 PM


Re: logic and scientist vs engineer and equivocation
Curiously I don't see it that way. I believe you agree that just having a degree doesn't make you a scientist.
Of course I agree with that. My point is that even trying to characterize a science related task as making a product for practical use is not enough to decide whether such a task can be labeled engineering or science. And to avoid a possible source of confusion, I am talking about tasks like synthesizing a novel chemical molecule to have a particular activity and non toxicity, and I am not talking about tasks like baking cookies.
Thus having a PhD in Mechanical Engineering doesn't make you a scientist.
I agree, but I'd have a bit more to say about that.
So is doing a little science sufficient to be called a scientist?
Well no, that's not my point.
A engineer with a PhD in mechanical engineering is almost certainly adequately trained to conduct scientific investigations within his field of expertise, while a person with brand spanking new BS in chemistry is most likely under qualified to conduct serious scientific work in most fields of chemistry without supervision.
Attempts to dismiss a PhD in Mechanical (or Electrical or Chemical) Engineering as a non-scientist on the basis of his degree being in engineering are misguided.
Edited by NoNukes, : fix some grammar. I'm sure I left in some other errors.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 72 by RAZD, posted 08-23-2014 12:43 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 76 of 92 (735764)
08-23-2014 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Straggler
08-23-2014 1:31 PM


Re: logic and scientist vs engineer and equivocation
And why does it matter here?
I'm not aware of a single claim made by Dr. Brown that was not adequately debunked 20 years ago. Which of his claims are still endorsed by any of the major creationist organizations? Why would anyone cite Walter Brown in support of the idea that creation science should be taken seriously?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Straggler, posted 08-23-2014 1:31 PM Straggler has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by Pressie, posted 08-24-2014 10:14 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 78 of 92 (735796)
08-25-2014 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 77 by Pressie
08-24-2014 10:14 AM


Re: logic and scientist vs engineer and equivocation
What' I've found a lot is that creationists tend to introduce themselves as "scientists" to very ignorant people who think that a Chemical Engineer would know the same about Palaeontology as an Inorganic Chemist would.
Uh, wouldn't they be just about right?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Pressie, posted 08-24-2014 10:14 AM Pressie has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 82 of 92 (736356)
09-07-2014 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by RAZD
09-07-2014 8:28 PM


Re: discovering further evidence and "human imagination" pseudoscience
Taking the position that it is human imagination in its strongest form is still just an excuse to not investigate
A conclusion that Yeti are imaginary is a reason not to investigate, but a hypothesis that they are imaginary is not.
As Taq and Dr. Adequate's discussion has indicated, a scientific investigation to demonstrate that Yeti exists ought to be identical to an investigation to establish that Yeti do not exist.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by RAZD, posted 09-07-2014 8:28 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 88 of 92 (736407)
09-09-2014 1:09 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by Straggler
09-08-2014 1:20 PM


Re: discovering further evidence and "human imagination" pseudoscience
The hypothesis that the abominable snowman is a mythical creature is falsified by the discovery of a real abominable snowman.
But such a hypothesis is not very specific.
I think the positive aspect of RAZD's position is that it points to a particular line of inquiry that RAZD thinks will be productive. That aspect is pretty important if you are going to spend your own money and time to visit Yeti-land in the dead of winter. The problem as I see it with his proposal is that there is neither a null hypothesis, or any suitable endpoint to his working hypothesis that would end his inquiry if there really isn't a Yeti.
But then that lack is not really unusual for cryptozoology. In fact, it is the essence of the topic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by Straggler, posted 09-08-2014 1:20 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by Straggler, posted 09-09-2014 3:12 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
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