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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 136 of 1864 (735839)
08-26-2014 12:11 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by Phat
08-26-2014 7:02 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
For one thing, you perceive the concept of God subjectively while I perceive Him objectively.
Bullshit.
Phat writes:
The other issue is what christianity teaches. Basically, its all about allowing relationship with the object(ive) which is Jesus Christ.
The object isn't Christ; it's far from certain that He even existed.
The object is the message. It's hard to be objective when you don't recognize the object.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Phat, posted 08-26-2014 7:02 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 08-26-2014 7:32 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 137 of 1864 (735849)
08-26-2014 7:32 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by ringo
08-26-2014 12:11 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
The messenger and the message are one. The message is alive.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by ringo, posted 08-26-2014 12:11 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 08-27-2014 11:41 AM Phat has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 1864 (735857)
08-27-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
08-26-2014 12:06 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Apparently the multitudinous references in the Bible the "God the Father" have escaped your notice. Or don't you think fathers have obligations to their children?
No, the mentions of the God the Father have not escaped me. It may surprise you, but I do read the Bible. My wife and I discuss it, and argue about it frequently. I find your statement a bit condescending, but not so much as to be offensive.
The obligation parents have to children is simply to rear them properly. My oldest child is 23. I love him, of course. But what is my current obligation to him now?
Besides that, the Bible was written by men. Men err.
As a final statement, let me suggest that given that God did not birth any of us, the use of 'Father' to describe a relationship to God is pure metaphor. Arguments based on metaphor are extremely dangerous. In actuality, God owes us very little. Perhaps he owes it to the universe to keep us from screwing up anything other than our little corner, but given the distances to other places, and special relativity, that seems to be taken care of.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-26-2014 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 08-27-2014 11:54 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 139 of 1864 (735859)
08-27-2014 11:03 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
08-26-2014 12:06 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
In fact, that's one of the more popular "proofs" that God exists.
There are no proofs.
If course your view of God's nature will be conisitent with your view of God's nature.
If that is true, it is only because I've taken the time to think about the issue. I assure you that it is generally easy to find confusion and inconsistencies in a believers view of God.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-26-2014 12:06 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by ringo, posted 08-27-2014 11:56 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 140 of 1864 (735862)
08-27-2014 11:41 AM
Reply to: Message 137 by Phat
08-26-2014 7:32 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
The messenger and the message are one.
That's just a meaningless a meaningless sound-bite.
There are many messengers with similar messages. The messenger, at best, is an example of the message.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Phat, posted 08-26-2014 7:32 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 08-27-2014 2:25 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 141 of 1864 (735863)
08-27-2014 11:54 AM
Reply to: Message 138 by NoNukes
08-27-2014 10:56 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
I find your statement a bit condescending, but not so much as to be offensive.
Maybe you're beginning to understand the concept of subtlety.
NoNukes writes:
The obligation parents have to children is simply to rear them properly. My oldest child is 23. I love him, of course. But what is my current obligation to him now?
You never stop being a parent. You have a perpetual obligation not to dig holes for him to fall into.
NoNukes writes:
As a final statement, let me suggest that given that God did not birth any of us, the use of 'Father' to describe a relationship to God is pure metaphor.
The use of "Father" in the sense of "mentor", etc. is always metaphorical; that's why we also have terms like "biological father" and "sperm donor".
NoNukes writes:
Arguments based on metaphor are extremely dangerous.
I'm Canadian; thin ice is my natural habitat.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2014 10:56 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2014 3:10 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 142 of 1864 (735864)
08-27-2014 11:56 AM
Reply to: Message 139 by NoNukes
08-27-2014 11:03 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NuNukes writes:
I assure you that it is generally easy to find confusion and inconsistencies in a believers view of God.
Amen. Same with unicorns.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2014 11:03 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 143 of 1864 (735877)
08-27-2014 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by ringo
08-27-2014 11:41 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
The messenger and the message are one.
ringo writes:
That's just a meaningless sound-bite. ...The messenger, at best, is an example of the message.
OK, lets discuss this for a moment. Start with Matthew. Whats the purpose of Jesus,according to the message?
Matt 1:20-21 writes:
an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
Note: It does not say He will be an example of how to live and will teach the people not to sin...He will actually be a savior.
Shall we continue?

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by ringo, posted 08-27-2014 11:41 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 08-27-2014 3:15 PM Phat has replied
 Message 150 by ringo, posted 08-28-2014 11:39 AM Phat has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 1864 (735882)
08-27-2014 3:10 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by ringo
08-27-2014 11:54 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Maybe you're beginning to understand the concept of subtlety.
That's a might too condescending. Your post was not all that subtle anyway.
You never stop being a parent. You have a perpetual obligation not to dig holes for him to fall into.
No more so than I have to any other human.
he use of "Father" in the sense of "mentor", etc. is always metaphorical; that's why we also have terms like "biological father" and "sperm donor".
Father does not mean 'mentor' at all. That just one role for a parent, and I would submit that God is not a mentor. Beyond that, you seem to be arguing my case and not yours. Some uses of the term father don't imply any obligation at all.
'm Canadian; thin ice is my natural habitat
All analogies have breaking points. If arguing by analogy is your normal style, you should anticipate being wrong quite a bit.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by ringo, posted 08-27-2014 11:54 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 08-28-2014 11:52 AM NoNukes has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 145 of 1864 (735884)
08-27-2014 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
08-27-2014 2:25 PM


misrepresentation, moving goal posts and quotemining.
quote:
Phat writes:
The messenger and the message are one.
ringo writes:
That's just a meaningless sound-bite. ...The messenger, at best, is an example of the message.
OK, lets discuss this for a moment. Start with Matthew. Whats the purpose of Jesus,according to the message?
Matt 1:20-21 writes:
an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21 She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."
Note: It does not say He will be an example of how to live and will teach the people not to sin...He will actually be a savior.
Shall we continue?
Great example and sure, let's continue.
That passage follows one of the two mutually exclusive genealogies and is followed by the answer to your question.
The passage you (once again) took out of context is a great example of palming the pea instead of answering the question, creating a self-fulfilling prophecy, misrepresenting what is actually written and Biblical quotemining as pointed out in Matthew 1 itself.
Matt 1 writes:
20 But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost.
21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name Jesus: for he shall save his people from their sins.
22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying,
23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
24 Then Joseph being raised from sleep did as the angel of the Lord had bidden him, and took unto him his wife:
25 And knew her not till she had brought forth her firstborn son: and he called his name Jesus.
Note that the writer of that part of Mathew commits all of those things but you too pulled one pieces parts out of context.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 08-27-2014 2:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 08-27-2014 3:23 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 146 of 1864 (735887)
08-27-2014 3:23 PM
Reply to: Message 145 by jar
08-27-2014 3:15 PM


Re: misrepresentation, moving goal posts and quotemining.
jar writes:
Note that the writer of that part of Mathew commits all of those things but you too pulled one pieces parts out of context.
I will admit that I am trying to build a case---from the message itself (message being defined as the books of the new testament) that validates my point that the message and the messenger are essentially the same thing. While it may be true that much literature has value and that there are many messages of value, my argument is attempting to show why the message of Jesus Christ is the best one.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 145 by jar, posted 08-27-2014 3:15 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 149 by jar, posted 08-27-2014 5:20 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 147 of 1864 (735888)
08-27-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by jar
07-22-2013 8:53 AM


Re: Not henotheism
jar writes:
I agree that what we believe influences what we do, and I believe that is one of the worst things about Christianity as marketed in the US. The "Saved" and "Forgiven" and "Christ died to pay for my sins" marketing spiels are vile and evil.
Ringo essentially says that we should be more concerned with believing(and doing) what Jesus taught rather than in Jesus Himself. I maintain that the two are essentially inseparable.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by jar, posted 07-22-2013 8:53 AM jar has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 148 of 1864 (735889)
08-27-2014 3:32 PM
Reply to: Message 107 by jar
08-20-2014 8:10 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
jar writes:
Man created the concept of evil and a moral sense exists only within the mythos of a culture, society or era. It totally arbitrary and it too evolves over time.
Some believe that evil existed before man became aware of it. The blame would thus be on God for allowing the possibility of evil to exist. I will agree, however, that we as humans are responsible for what we do. We cant blame the devil for our bad behavior and we cant assume that God will overlook it either.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by jar, posted 08-20-2014 8:10 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 149 of 1864 (735903)
08-27-2014 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Phat
08-27-2014 3:23 PM


Re: misrepresentation, moving goal posts and quotemining.
But you are not building an honest case when you exclude evidence that refutes your position. That is the basic dishonesty that forms the foundation of "Biblical Christianity".
Phat writes:
Ringo essentially says that we should be more concerned with believing(and doing) what Jesus taught rather than in Jesus Himself. I maintain that the two are essentially inseparable.
Jesus seems to agree with Ringo, not you.
Life requires real food, real shelter, real clothing, real health care, real protection not imagined platitudes.
Edited by jar, : add part deux

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Phat, posted 08-27-2014 3:23 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 150 of 1864 (735944)
08-28-2014 11:39 AM
Reply to: Message 143 by Phat
08-27-2014 2:25 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Phat writes:
Note: It does not say He will be an example of how to live and will teach the people not to sin...He will actually be a savior.
How would He "be a savior"? And why would He have to come to earth to do it? Why couldn't He poof us "saved" from heaven?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 143 by Phat, posted 08-27-2014 2:25 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 04-09-2016 2:56 PM ringo has replied

  
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