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Author Topic:   Artificial Selection - Is the term simply convenient?
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 37 (735875)
08-27-2014 2:20 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by AppleScratch
08-27-2014 12:51 PM


Main Question: Is the concept of Artificial Selection just a convenient terminology, or is it considered scientifically differentiated from Natural Selection?
There's basically two ways to dichotomize the word "natural".
One is the natural vs. supernatural dichotomy.
Another is the natural vs. artificial dichotomy.
For the natural vs. artificial dichotomy, artificial means "man-made" while natural means that it was not man-made.
So, when a selective pressure is referred to as artificial, that just means that it was caused by man.
There's really nothing more to it than that. Its just a distinction that we've created for our own purposes.
I am not able to grasp why human intention is considered to transcend natural process, at least when speaking scientifically.
Human intention is still a natural process, in the sense that its not supernatural, but we do separate it from processes that we have no hand in because, well, because we're the ones making the rules and that's how we want to do it.
Is there some massive miss-step that I am making with this line of reason?
I think you're applying more to the distinction than is intended.
Say you found an a sharp triangular stone in the dirt, like an arrow head. As a geologist, you may be interested in determining if unintelligent geological processes could have formed it, or if it was made by a person on purpose. To distinguish between those options, you may refer to the first as a natural process and the second as an artificial process. But calling it an artifact only means that it was made by man, not that it was some supernatural process.
Or we could look at something like the banana. Regular old naturally occurring bananas are full of seed and have very little fruit. The bananas at the grocery store are the result of a long line of man-made selective pressure (and cloning).
The purpose of referring to that as artificially selected is just to distinguish is from the process that occur in nature without our help. There's really nothing more to it than that.

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 Message 1 by AppleScratch, posted 08-27-2014 12:51 PM AppleScratch has not replied

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 7 of 37 (735878)
08-27-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Stile
08-27-2014 2:13 PM


Damn ninjas...
You're just using a secondary definition for the word "natural" (natural vs. imaginary or supernatural) and applying it to some specific scientific terminology that is using a different definition of the word (human-interference vs. no-human-interference).
So I work in the chemical industry.
Occasionally I'll get some hippy-dippy customer call me to ask if the chemical product they have is natural or not.
Sometimes I'll joke: "I assure you, none of the chemicals that we use are supernatural."
After they explain that's not what they meant, I'll challenge them to explain exactly what they are asking. And they really don't know. So I'll tell them that some of the surfactants we use are petroleum derived, so they are artificial. But, snake venom is 100% all-natural so if they want that in there instead maybe we can look into it.
Even worse though: "Are your chemicals organic?"
"Uh, mam, you do know that organic chemistry is a thing, right? And that it has nothing to do with farming, yeah? So that product contains both organic and inorganic chemicals. But that has nothing to do with how we grew them..."

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 37 (735953)
08-28-2014 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Stile
08-28-2014 1:14 PM


Re: Missing the Real Issue
My point with the sheep was not that the selection pressure (wolves) were removed. My point was that humans did the removing.
That's what moves it from 'natural' to 'artificial.'
The only fine-line-problem I can see with that is if humans unintentionally affect an ecosystem.
I think we should leave the artificial qualification to those that are intentional.
That counts the sheep out.
That also counts the pigeons out.
But the corn, that stays in 'cause we did that shit on purpose.
For the sheep, I suppose you could ask: What is the desired trait that we are selecting for?
There really isn't one, is there? We just don't want the wolves eating them.
With the corn its obvious.

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 Message 33 by Stile, posted 08-28-2014 1:14 PM Stile has seen this message but not replied

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 Message 35 by Taq, posted 08-28-2014 4:03 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 37 (735962)
08-28-2014 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Taq
08-28-2014 4:03 PM


Re: Missing the Real Issue
That's an easy one. We are selecting for temperment, wool production, meat production, time to maturity, short time between giving birth and becoming fertile again, and milk production.
Oh, yeah, sure. For that stuff its definitely artificial selection. I was trying to keep my assessment within the parameters that the OP set out:
quote:
I have a herd of sheep, and kill off the wolves in order for my herd to survive. This allows more successful survival of sheep. This provides more food and utility for myself than if I did not kill the wolves.
In that case, since he's not selecting for any particular traits, I'd reserve calling that artificial selection.
But yes, if your breeding sheep to have more wool then that's definitely artificial selection.
Interestingly, our domesticated animals have also selected for us.
Yup, disease tolerance too. Did you read/see "Guns, Germs, and Steel"?
If not, the video is available online for free:
Attention Required! | Cloudflare
I thought it was pretty cool.

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