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Author Topic:   The Meaning Of The Trinity
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 151 of 1864 (735946)
08-28-2014 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 144 by NoNukes
08-27-2014 3:10 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
ringo writes:
You never stop being a parent. You have a perpetual obligation not to dig holes for him to fall into.
No more so than I have to any other human.
Good point. We are all "fathers" to each other in the same sense that God is a "father" to us - only we tend to be more hands-on about it.
NoNukes writes:
Some uses of the term father don't imply any obligation at all.
So give us some examples from the Bible.
NoNukes writes:
If arguing by analogy is your normal style, you should anticipate being wrong quite a bit.
It is, and I have been wrong a time or two. If you actually think about things you're likely to be wrong sometimes. How else would you suggest a person can become "right"?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by NoNukes, posted 08-27-2014 3:10 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 08-28-2014 11:48 PM ringo has replied
 Message 153 by NoNukes, posted 08-28-2014 11:53 PM ringo has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 152 of 1864 (735969)
08-28-2014 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
08-28-2014 11:52 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Good point. We are all "fathers" to each other in the same sense that God is a "father" to us - only we tend to be more hands-on about it.
Actually, if we want to make analogies in that sense, "brothers", "neighbors", "fellow human", and "peers" works just as well for describing our relationship to each other. That relationship does not make me your "God" to reverse the sense of the metaphor.
NoNukes writes:
Some uses of the term father don't imply any obligation at all.
So give us some examples from the Bible.
Why do I need to do that? Show me where the Bible describes an obligation to protect you from being eaten by a lion, and I'll be happy to use the Father metaphor to describe that relationship.
Edited by NoNukes, : Complete argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 08-28-2014 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 08-29-2014 11:45 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 153 of 1864 (735970)
08-28-2014 11:53 PM
Reply to: Message 151 by ringo
08-28-2014 11:52 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
t is, and I have been wrong a time or two. I
We should not strive to be wrong by deliberately arguing a metaphor past it's breaking point. I am not just saying that you are potentially wrong, I am saying that you are stretching a metaphor at least to the point where it is not the least bit persuasive. You can call God your Father, but even your own parent is not obligated to watch over you to make sure you don't misstep or encounter danger. If you think there is an obligation, then provide an argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 151 by ringo, posted 08-28-2014 11:52 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 155 by ringo, posted 08-29-2014 11:58 AM NoNukes has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 154 of 1864 (735987)
08-29-2014 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 152 by NoNukes
08-28-2014 11:48 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
Actually, if we want to make analogies in that sense, "brothers", "neighbors", "fellow human", and "peers" works just as well for describing our relationship to each other.
Yes indeed. So how does the relationship with "God the Father" differ?
NoNukes writes:
Show me where the Bible describes an obligation to protect you from being eaten by a lion, and I'll be happy to use the Father metaphor to describe that relationship.
Psalm 23 comes to mind:
quote:
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
You might be able to weasel around the word "obligation" but I don't think you can deny that protection is expected.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 152 by NoNukes, posted 08-28-2014 11:48 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-29-2014 12:04 PM ringo has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 155 of 1864 (735988)
08-29-2014 11:58 AM
Reply to: Message 153 by NoNukes
08-28-2014 11:53 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
We should not strive to be wrong by deliberately arguing a metaphor past it's breaking point.
We don't "strive to be wrong". We do test a metaphor by stretching it to its breaking point, like we test anything else. Your predictions of the breaking point are less reliable than actual testing.
NoNukes writes:
I am not just saying that you are potentially wrong, I am saying that you are stretching a metaphor at least to the point where it is not the least bit persuasive.
I'm not trying to persuade you.
NoNukes writes:
You can call God your Father...
I don't. The Bible does.
NoNukes writes:
... but even your own parent is not obligated to watch over you to make sure you don't misstep or encounter danger.
Sure he is. Ever hear of "child endangerment"?
NoNukes writes:
If you think there is an obligation, then provide an argument.
Been there, done that, the T-shirt is in the laundry. To recap: The Bible emphasizes a metaphorical father-child relationship between God and His people. I contend that that relationship implies an obligation to protect His people. His people expect that protection (e.g. Psalm 23). You don't seem to feel inclined to refute my contention with Biblical references, so the contention stands.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 153 by NoNukes, posted 08-28-2014 11:53 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 156 of 1864 (735989)
08-29-2014 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 154 by ringo
08-29-2014 11:45 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
Show me where the Bible describes an obligation to protect you from being eaten by a lion, and I'll be happy to use the Father metaphor to describe that relationship.
Psalm 23 comes to mind:
quote:
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies:
You might be able to weasel around the word "obligation" but I don't think you can deny that protection is expected.
That's the first thing that came to my mind when NN asked, and then I also thought that there may be a counter argument that it doesn't explicitly state an obligation.
I also thought of Matthew 7:
quote:
7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? 11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him! 12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.
Not only does it hint at an obligation, for if you ask then God will provide, but it also uses the Father-Son relationship in the explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 154 by ringo, posted 08-29-2014 11:45 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 157 by ringo, posted 08-29-2014 12:07 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied
 Message 158 by petrophysics1, posted 08-30-2014 1:41 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2014 2:16 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied
 Message 162 by Jon, posted 08-31-2014 9:57 AM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 157 of 1864 (735990)
08-29-2014 12:07 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by New Cat's Eye
08-29-2014 12:04 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Catholic Scientist writes:
Not only does it hint at an obligation, for if you ask then God will provide, but it also uses the Father-Son relationship in the explanation.
Well done, my son.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-29-2014 12:04 PM New Cat's Eye has seen this message but not replied

  
petrophysics1
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 158 of 1864 (736022)
08-30-2014 1:41 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by New Cat's Eye
08-29-2014 12:04 PM


Re: The Limitations Of God
CS writes:
Not only does it hint at an obligation, for if you ask then God will provide
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
My friends all drive Porsches, I must make amends.
Worked hard all my lifetime, no help from my friends,
So Lord, won't you buy me a Mercedes Benz ?
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?
Dialing For Dollars is trying to find me.
I wait for delivery each day until three,
So oh Lord, won't you buy me a color TV ?
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town ?
I'm counting on you, Lord, please don't let me down.
Prove that you love me and buy the next round,
Oh Lord, won't you buy me a night on the town
Years ago Janis Joplin scientifically tested your concept about God and found it to be untrue.
Maybe Matthew 7 is more about what your attitude should be rather than God's obligations to you. Sorry, I guess He's not the Big Sugar Daddy in the sky.
P.S. Don't believe a word CS speaks, he is a real snake.
Edited by petrophysics1, : Add P.S.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-29-2014 12:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 159 by ringo, posted 08-30-2014 12:06 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 159 of 1864 (736029)
08-30-2014 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 158 by petrophysics1
08-30-2014 1:41 AM


Re: The Limitations Of God
petrophysics1 writes:
P.S. Don't believe a word CS speaks, he is a real snake.
You fundies and your talking snakes.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by petrophysics1, posted 08-30-2014 1:41 AM petrophysics1 has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 160 of 1864 (736031)
08-30-2014 2:16 PM
Reply to: Message 156 by New Cat's Eye
08-29-2014 12:04 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Not only does it hint at an obligation, for if you ask then God will provide, but it also uses the Father-Son relationship in the explanation.
Nicely done CS. When I thought about the topic offline, this was the best example I could come up with.
What I would add though, is that the 'obligation' described here is an obligation that God has taken on. If you want to use this to rationalize that God owes us a world without war or a sun that won't be unsuitable in a few billion years, these verses are not much help.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-29-2014 12:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 161 by Omnivorous, posted 08-30-2014 8:52 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Omnivorous
Member
Posts: 3978
From: Adirondackia
Joined: 07-21-2005
Member Rating: 7.3


(1)
Message 161 of 1864 (736039)
08-30-2014 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 160 by NoNukes
08-30-2014 2:16 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
NoNukes writes:
If you want to use this to rationalize that God owes us a world without war or a sun that won't be unsuitable in a few billion years, these verses are not much help.
I smell straw.

"If you can keep your head while those around you are losing theirs, you can collect a lot of heads."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 160 by NoNukes, posted 08-30-2014 2:16 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
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Jon
Inactive Member


Message 162 of 1864 (736043)
08-31-2014 9:57 AM
Reply to: Message 156 by New Cat's Eye
08-29-2014 12:04 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Of course God is not obligated to keep His promises.
And He's certainly not obligated to keep promises made by someone else.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 156 by New Cat's Eye, posted 08-29-2014 12:04 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 164 by NoNukes, posted 08-31-2014 12:56 PM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 163 of 1864 (736047)
08-31-2014 12:52 PM
Reply to: Message 161 by Omnivorous
08-30-2014 8:52 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
I smell straw.
I believe your nose is in error. I can point to past discussion involving exactly those examples.
The real disagreement I have is with the idea that we can use the term 'Father' to make up obligations for God that we have no evidence or scripture indicating that God has agreed to.
Edited by NoNukes, : Tweaked to remove endorsement of another poster

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 161 by Omnivorous, posted 08-30-2014 8:52 PM Omnivorous has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by ringo, posted 09-02-2014 12:13 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 164 of 1864 (736048)
08-31-2014 12:56 PM
Reply to: Message 162 by Jon
08-31-2014 9:57 AM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Of course God is not obligated to keep His promises.
Maybe not, but if God breaks such promise, it would not be all that strange that we would judge him by that breach.
And He's certainly not obligated to keep promises made by someone else.
Yes. This is exactly the point.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 162 by Jon, posted 08-31-2014 9:57 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 165 by Jon, posted 09-01-2014 12:09 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 165 of 1864 (736069)
09-01-2014 12:09 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by NoNukes
08-31-2014 12:56 PM


Re: The Limitations Of Good And Evil Behaviors
Maybe not, but if God breaks such promise, it would not be all that strange that we would judge him by that breach.
And there's nothing saying we can't judge God. In fact, judging God seems just fine: we gain the ability to do so just three chapters in and Abraham and Moses both judged God.
There seems nothing wrong with judging God, and there seems to be no reason God should keep His promises.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by NoNukes, posted 08-31-2014 12:56 PM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 166 by jar, posted 09-01-2014 1:37 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied
 Message 167 by Tangle, posted 09-01-2014 1:44 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
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