Multiculturalism

I thought you wanted democratic western values to be adopted? Fine, but I'm hoping for examples of policies actively working against this assimilation. It's a joke. Look it up, sourpuss. Why? Well - not uniquely American and not entirely secular; also its not a national holiday, but OK close enough. There are schools that allow Halloween costumes during working hours? For what ages are we talking here? The policy against it - did it prohibit discussion in the classroom, imagery etc? How does that 'make no sense'? On the one hand you say it is to be inclusive, and on the other you say it really is about avoiding some children feeling excluded. Aren't they the same thing?If you are able to find cases where we are both able to view the policy and any official statements about a policy regarding Halloween in schools then maybe we can talk further on this matter. It doesn't seem to be promoting and strengthening minority cultures, so I'm not sure 'Multicultural' is the appropriate term as you've been using it in this thread. Seems more about trying to avoid being the cause of a feeling of exclusion in some children. This is better described, I think, as Political Correctness. Like? Making them mandatory at the Federal level? I mean you wanted 'very direct instruction on values.' - what could be more direct than courses on that subject? In adult classes? Allowances need to be made, yes. Children don't need to rigidly observe salat, but in school times only one prayer break tends to fall within school time: Zohar {your salat times may vary} and maybe Asar. I imagine the same would be true for adult students. Well having breaks is actually good for learning, and further they exist already. Most classes will proceed without a prayer time coming up. I see no disrespect of our culture happening here. But consider this. You say to your adult students - "No allowances for prayer times will be allowed. You will not be permitted to leave class every prayer time." What will happen?Will conservative Muslims from strongly religious backgrounds say 'Screw my fundamental religious duties' and take up the classes that you want to use to help assimilate them? Improving their English, knowledge of American history, politics and values?No. They'll just not enrol. Which would undermine your goal, I think, serving to entrench cultural differences. Yes, that is typical student behaviour and to a certain extent is an essential part of the learning process. Sure, other than kicking them out of class, options are limited with adults. Of any culture. I'm not sure what this has to do with cultures. Western students can be disruptive too, or is this something that is recognized as a problem with some other culture that you are seeing a lot of?Here, there is no multicultural policy I can see to discuss. This is more a problem with dealing with adults. If the lesson is being continuously crowded out then either the teacher needs to address and resolve this using discussion, or by expulsion from the class. March of Monoculture? It's not entirely on topic so don't worry about it.

Not technically, but I do think this thread is asking about national policies. This isn't about how imperialists should be treating their conquerees...This is about the policies a nation employs to determine how accepting they'll be of their immigrants' cultural practices.Generally, the question is whether a nation should lean towards being more or less accepting of those practices and how those leanings could impact other interests of the nation.Like discussing if accommodating Sharia-esque mentalities would hurt feminism.Or discussing if it is better to encourage Hispanic immigrants to learn English, or should we be more accommodating and push for more Spanish prevalence.Should we protect peoples' sensibilities towards eating pork, or should we leave it out in the open and expect them to get over it?What are the ramifications of both sides?As a nation, is the multicultural approach the best one? Are there particular practices that respond better, or worse, to the multiculturalism approach?Stuff like that... At least, that's what how I'm understanding it.

What's your point?

The British decided it was; trying to force the English language, the British legal system and the Church of England on the people of Quebec would have given them a French enemy in their back yard (their front yard at the time being the colonies which became the United States). That's exactly what we're talking about. You seem to be complaining about laws forcing multiculturalism on you (though you're a little thin on concrete examples). I'm saying that the reason we have laws is to protect the majority (e.g. "law-biding people") from the minority (criminals) and to protect minorities from the majority. We do need laws to prevent you from putting up signs that say "No Irish" or "Whites Only". Unfortunately, we can also get laws that say, "You must speak French," which nobody here is in favour of, as far as I know.

More than that. We are just getting to the level where we are starting to recognize liberties on the principle of 'live and let live'. As a society we should be cautious of importing people who might work against this achievement.We have enough problems with home-grown craziness.Why should we be bring more loonies aboard the ship?And if we do bring them aboard, shouldn't we try to make sure they don't end up in camp with our own crazies? Because it is an example of importing dysfunctional culture. Canada may not have imported patriarchy, but Minnesota has been importing tribalism. There aren't many other holidays celebrated in the U.S. by anything more than 'woo hoo, paid day off'.American culture in general is rather holiday-less. But anyway... When I was a child, I could dress up for Halloween in school. There were practical limits to the costumes (you still had to sit in a desk and use a pencil, etc.), so a lot of kids just wore partial costumes. We exchanged candy, and got some from the teacher (not too much, of course, since we were all going to get shitloads the same night). The classrooms were decorated. The schools don't have free rein over how much non-education stuff they can do in a day, but we did the whole thing within reason.At the end of the night, when you had gotten all the candy you could, you went to the city-sponsored Halloween party at the town hall, where you played games to get more candy and competed in costume contests.This was possible because Halloween was seen (and really should be seen along with most aspects of Christmas) as a secular holiday that is part of national culture.In the schools where I worked, things were different. The most either school really did was jack-o-lanterns, and this was not technically okay, but again, individual teachers can set their own agendas and so there is variety even within a single school or between classrooms of the same grade level. No dressing up, as I mentioned before. And certainly no city-sponsored Halloween party!We might go further on this topic, for example: dressing up for Halloween is an outward display of cultural identity, so there is a lot that could be said of its suppression in public schools. No. Inclusive would mean letting everyone celebrate in Halloween and not keeping some kids from it. Not wanting some kids to feel excluded means getting rid of the whole thing altogether so that nobody can have it. Using buzzwords like 'inclusive' to mean 'not offend' instead of 'not exclude' is part of the Multiculturalism-as-policy jargon. Very direct instruction doesn't come just from courses. My point is that it is disrespectful to other students from different cultures. This is one of the side effects of Multicultural policies: they lay out which cultures are to be accommodated and those are the ones that get accommodation.A system that simply runs by the norms of the host culture may not be very accommodating to Muslim students, but it is also not specifically accommodating to any other culture.From my perspective it seems better to be equally unaccommodating to all non-mainstream cultures than unfairly accommodating to some at the expense of accommodating others. This might be an example of being equally unaccommodating; you are correct that classroom breaks are standard. But then they should occur at specific times during the class so that students can anticipate and plan around them (this is how we show respect in Western cultures regarding the use of other people's time).Having the breaks occur randomly whenever sundown is serves, obviously, only one purpose. There are folks from cultures that have no concept of classroom standards”mainly because they have no experience in classrooms.As you admit, disciplining adults is not really feasible: they either follow the rules or you kick them out.But ya can't kick them out. Much like you can't get rid of prayer time and schedule hard-and-fast breaks instead. Because Multiculturalism dictates that you pander to specific standards of certain non-mainstream cultures; even if this is to the detriment of other non-mainstream cultures that did not have the good luck of being recognized in Multicultural policy.And that's probably one of the biggest problems with trying to implement Multiculturalism in an educational setting with so much cultural diversity. It is simply impossible to recognize all of the cultural differences without clearly favoring some cultures over others. Too late.

Adapted from Dr. Peter Hammond’s book: Slavery, Terrorism and Islam: The Historical Roots and Contemporary Threat:Islam is not a religion, nor is it a cult. In its fullest form, it is a complete, total, 100% system of life. Islam has religious, legal, political, economic, social, and military components. The religious component is a beard for all of the other components.Islamization begins when there are sufficient Muslims in a country to agitate for their religious privileges. When politically correct, tolerant, and culturally diverse societies agree to Muslim demands for their religious privileges, some of the other components tend to creep in as well..Here’s how it works:As long as the Muslim population remains around or under 2% in any given country, they will be for the most part be regarded as a peace-loving minority, and not as a threat to other citizens. This is the case in:United States Muslim 0.6%
Australia Muslim 1.5%
Canada Muslim 1.9%
China Muslim 1.8%
Italy Muslim 1.5%
Norway Muslim 1.8%At 2% to 5%, they begin to proselytize from other ethnic minorities and disaffected groups, often with major recruiting from the jails and among street gangs. This is happening in:Denmark Muslim 2%
Germany Muslim 3.7%
United Kingdom Muslim 2.7%
Spain Muslim 4%
Thailand Muslim 4.6%From 5% on, they exercise an inordinate influence in proportion to their percentage of the population. For example, they will push for the introduction of halal (clean by Islamic standards) food, thereby securing food preparation jobs for Muslims. They will increase pressure on supermarket chains to feature halal on their shelves along with threats for failure to comply.This is occurring in:
France Muslim 8%
Philippines Muslims 5%
Sweden Muslim 5%
Switzerland Muslim 4.3%
The Netherlands Muslim 5.5%
Trinidad & Tobago Muslim 5.8%At this point, they will work to get the ruling government to allow them to rule themselves (within their ghettos) under Sharia, the Islamic Law.The ultimate goal of Islamists is to establish Sharia law over the entire world. When Muslims approach 10% of the population, they tend to increase lawlessness as a means of complaint about their conditions.In Paris, we are already seeing car-burnings. Any non Muslim action offends Islam, and results in uprisings and threats, such as in Amsterdam , with opposition to Mohammed cartoons and films about Islam. Such tensions are seen daily, particularly in Muslim sections, in:Guyana Muslim 10%
India Muslim 13.4%
Israel Muslim 16%
Kenya Muslim 10%
Russia Muslim 15%After reaching 20%, nations can expect hair-trigger rioting, jihad militia formations, sporadic killings, and the burnings of Christian churches and Jewish synagogues, such as in:
Ethiopia Muslim 32.8%At 40%, nations experience widespread massacres, chronic terror attacks, and ongoing militia warfare, such as in:
Bosnia Muslim 40%
Chad Muslim 53.1%
Lebanon Muslim 59.7%From 60%, nations experience unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions (including non-conforming Muslims), sporadic ethnic cleansing (genocide), use of Sharia Law as a weapon, and Jizya, the tax placed on infidels, such as in:Albania Muslim 70%
Malaysia Muslim 60.4%
Qatar Muslim 77.5%
Sudan Muslim 70%After 80%, expect daily intimidation and violent jihad, some State-run ethnic cleansing, and even some genocide, as these nations drive out the infidels, and move toward 100% Muslim, such as has been experienced and in some ways is on-going in:Bangladesh Muslim 83%
Egypt Muslim 90%
Gaza Muslim 98.7%
Indonesia Muslim 86.1%
Iran Muslim 98%
Iraq Muslim 97%
Jordan Muslim 92%
Morocco Muslim 98.7%
Pakistan Muslim 97%
Palestine Muslim 99%
Syria Muslim 90%
Tajikistan Muslim 90%
Turkey Muslim 99.8%
United Arab Emirates Muslim 96%100% will usher in the peace of ‘Dar-es-Salaam’ the Islamic House of Peace.. Here there’s supposed to be peace, because everybody is a Muslim, the Madrasses are the only schools, and the Koran is the only word, such as in:Afghanistan Muslim 100%
Saudi Arabia Muslim 100%
Somalia Muslim 100%
Yemen Muslim 100%Unfortunately, peace is never achieved, as in these 100% states the most radical Muslims intimidate and spew hatred, and satisfy their blood lust by killing less radical Muslims, for a variety of reasons.Before I was nine I had learned the basic canon of Arab life. It was me against my brother; me and my brother against our father; my family against my cousins and the clan; the clan against the tribe; the tribe against the world, and all of us against the infidel. Leon Uris, ‘The Haj’It is important to understand that in some countries, with well under 100% Muslim populations, such as France, the minority Muslim populations live in ghettos, within which they are 100% Muslim, and within which they live by Sharia Law. The national police do not even enter these ghettos.There are no national courts, nor schools, nor non-Muslim religious facilities. In such situations, Muslims do not integrate into the community at large. The children attend madrasses. They learn only the Koran. To even associate with an infidel is a crime punishable with death.Therefore, in some areas of certain nations, Muslim Imams and extremists exercise more power than the national average would indicate. Today’s 1.5 billion Muslims make up 22% of the world’s population. But their birth rates dwarf the birth rates of Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews, and all other believers. Muslims will exceed 50% of the world’s population by the end of this century.Edited by Coyote, : speeling

Wasn't that pretty much accomplished by early 1800's? All the different American cultures had been herded off to reservations where even native languages were banned and children were schooled on white-man imperial colonist propaganda?And if you mean white-man culture -- what is that? Is southern white baptist culture the same as white Pennsylvania protestant culture and white Boston Catholic culture? Are the cultural influences of those who came to America pre-revolutionary war more important to "American culture" than those who came post revolutionary war, post world war I and post world war II?Can you really define a dominant culture in America? Would you say it is defined by the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution -- steeped in the cultural heritages of the original 13 colonies? The concept that all people are created equal, with inalienable rights to justice, freedom, respect and the pursuit of happiness?Or is the dominant culture in America one of greedy consumerism and plutocracy?Enjoy

Would that be the French that banned the burqa, or a different French?I can't find anything in the paper about "maintaining sub-cultures despite the host culture's effects of dwindling them"?

Sounds suspiciously multicultural to me. What with the different cultures and all.

I'll just put in the same effort that you do.

Er ... weren't the Bosnian massacres of Muslims rather than by them?As far as I can find out, Bosnia is currently rather lovely. People go there for the skiing. For some reason Bosnia's 45% Muslim population don't massacre them. Yeah, about that. And yet ..."According to a 2010 survey, religion today plays an important role in the lives of only 39% of Albanians, and Albania is ranked among the least religious countries in the world." --- WP."The Constitution of Albania provides for freedom of religion, and the Government has generally respected this right in practice. There have been no reports of societal abuses or discrimination based on religious beliefs or practice. In data collected by sociologists Brian Grim and Roger Finke Albania scored low on Government Regulation of Religion, Social Regulation of Religion, Government Favoritism of Religion and Religious Persecution." --- WP.No mention of the "unfettered persecution of non-believers of all other religions" of which you speak, nor the imposition of the jizya.What is Dr. Peter Hammond a doctor of? I'm gonna guess it's not Looking Stuff Up.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

I read the paper.

Would that be the paper that I linked to, or a different paper?I can't find anything in your reply about "reading the paper that I linked to"?

I guess there are a number of reasons, including their qualifications and local labour shortages as well as humanitarian ones. This might be interesting {The Pakistani Muslim Community in England — Understanding Muslim Ethnic Communities, Department for Communities and Local Government, March 2009} as it an examination of the situation of Pakistanis in Britain:

quote:

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Large scale immigration to Britain from Pakistan began in the 1950s, when Britain encouraged migration from the former colonies to satisfy its post war labour needs. Migration increased significantly in 1961 prior to the Commonwealth Immigrants Act (1962) which restricted automatic entry to the UK for Commonwealth citizens.

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The identity of different generations varies, with the elders from the first generation still feeling a strong connection towards their country of birth. The second generation also has a deep connection to Pakistan, but to a much lesser extent than their parents. The third generation of young people see themselves as primarily British and this forms a strong part
of their identity. As the country of birth of their parents and grandparents, they still have a deep personal or psychological association with Pakistan, but one that is a substantially diminished part of their own personal identity in comparison to their parents. However, the majority of community members of all ages and generations unequivocally describe
themselves as British Muslims.

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Whilst there is still a substantial gap between the educational attainment of pupils of Pakistani heritage and the national average, increasing numbers of young Pakistanis, male and female, are successfully entering higher education and moving into the professional sphere occupations. There are indications that the economic trajectory of the Pakistani
community is now beginning to mirror that of the indigenous population, with a majority middle or aspiring middle class, alongside an underclass of mainly young people who have left school with no qualifications and are caught up in drugs and criminality. Whilst officially unemployed, many are part of a thriving and ‘informal economy’.

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Unlike their mother’s generation, who were largely restricted to the home, most young women have the expectation of working and developing their professional careers. Pakistani girls and women are outperforming their male counterparts in compulsory and higher education, and women are becoming more visible in all walks of life: corporate, media, political and community based. Leadership is being demonstrated through a growing number of women who are taking a leading role in politics and other arenas as councillors, mayors, journalists, and by women in high profile jobs in the public sector. However, women stress that they still have to reconcile these aspirations and goals within the framework of a patriarchal culture — ‘to be someone in a man’s world’.

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Many of the Pakistani Muslims who took part in this study are critical about current debates about integration and cohesion. They feel that these debates only arise when there is a sense of public crisis, and that these ignore the reality of a multicultural Britain in which communities by and large live side by side in harmony and mutual respect. The
use of the term integration is particularly resented, as it is felt to imply a one sided focus on minority communities, as opposed to being promoted as a two way process. There is also a widespread view that no matter how much minorities try, the majority community will never
accept them as truly British. Some are also very critical about the low levels of awareness and lack of interest in the host community about minority communities and cultures. There is a high level of anger about the perceived increase in Islamophobia in British society and the stereotyping of all Muslims as potential terrorists or terrorist sympathisers. This
makes people feel that their loyalty and British identity is being questioned. Most people in the community believe that, like mainstream society, the majority of Pakistanis view acts of terrorism as a serious crime and hence the exploitation of terms to link all Muslims with
terrorism is a very serious issue.

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Pakistani families have maintained close links with Pakistan and their families there since their arrival in the UK but these links are weakening with the third generation. Travel between Pakistan and the UK has consistently been a strong link and sending of remittances to families has been a critical element of connection, and whilst the tradition is
still maintained, it is not at the same level as the days of early migration.

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During the 1950s and 1960s, those that migrated were largely single men, both educated and uneducated. They found ewith labour shortages in the West Midlands, West Yorkshire, and Lancashire, in cities such
as Birmingham, Bradford, Manchester, Newcastle-on-Tyne, and Glasgow in Scotland. After some years they were joined by their families and dependants.

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Young people consulted for the study defined being British as an essential part of their identity. Within the overall category of British Muslim, some also defined themselves in relation to geographical affiliations such as Brummies, Bradfordians and Londoners. However, according to young respondents, the identity issue has become very critical post 9/11 and 7/7. The mass increase in Islamophobia, negative publicity and the general
perception about Muslims, are causing a crisis in the minds of the third generation, who have now begun to feel unsupported by the British system and culture, and made to feel like strangers in what they consider as their home.

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However, the strength of these links and that of denominations is dwindling, particularly with the third generation, which is questioning the validity of the different sects and their inability to agree on approaches to important religious celebrations, which they see as causing more frictions than bonding amongst Muslims in the country. University students interviewed during the study also spoke about the need to individually decide where they stand in relation to religious practice along the continuum from really strict adherents on the one hand, to people who have completely turned their back on religion on the other.
The respondents saw this decision as a personal issue, but felt that there was a lot of peer pressure on them from more overtly religious students.

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Whilst appreciating the value of maintaining elements of their culture and traditions, younger respondents also highlighted the pressures imposed by the extended family and community structures which make it difficult for them to establish their own independent ways of living. According to them, existing community support structures were all established to meet the needs of the earlier generations and have not kept pace with the
changing needs of the community, particularly young people and women.

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The community considers itself to be well integrated and its primary self identification is that of British Muslim. At the same time, it is keen to maintain close links with its cultural heritage and country of origin. Many question the public policy focus on cohesion and integration which is seen by many as a knee jerk response to a current situation that ignores the fact that Britain is a multicultural society in which various communities have lived and continue to live harmoniously. Integration approaches are particularly mistrusted and are viewed primarily as a means to force minority communities to assimilate into an imagined British culture and values.

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Sorry for the massive paste, but it's a 74 page document and it's quite interesting. The sense I get is that is that assimilation is happening naturally as distance from home culture grows generationally and over time. Overt attempts to force the issue result in entrenchment, overreaction by the local population and media to terrible events other Muslims are involved in is contributory to a strengthening of religious identity and possibly extremism.It seems that rather than distrusting and disenfranchising them, welcoming them and accommodating them is a better strategy towards assimilation. The Pakistanis interviewed raised the issue that many of the 'multicultural' policies/infrastructure are focussed on the needs of first generation immigrants and there isn't enough support for those of the third generation who have quite different cultural needs and identity. And what multicultural policies are encouraging or promoting this? Are we just complaining about immigration policy? That is a topic in its own right, I think. OK gotcha. Were there other activities such as making halloween posters, dunking for apples etc? Halloween is a lot less of a thing here in the UK, I sense, although strangely I get the impression that American culture is influencing things so as to increase its significance. I think our cultural oddity of 'burn the Catholic terrorist and celebrate oppressive tyranny'-day being so close is to blame. You mentioned this kind of thing was becoming more fashionable - do you have stats on it anywhere? I agree, but the situation is complex so I can't really add much to the discussion. Here in the UK we tend to have Halloween off school so I don't think it ever came up.But I think I get the sense. So one change you'd propose is more participation in cultural traditions such as holidays in educational venues. Do you suggest Federal intervention or just persuasion of school boards? I disagree. It can't be inclusive if it doesn't include everybody. A school menu that only has Pork chops for main course is not inclusive even if you 'let' every eat it. If there are children who are prohibited religiously from participating in Halloween (whether that be conservative Christians, Jews or Muslims), you will exclude them from joining in certain activities.I guess there are a variety of solutions possible, I have no idea what is best, but I certainly understand the concerns of those involved, given these are real children with real feelings they are responsible for rather than some object to be shaped. If you think there is something that isn't done now, or should be done more then let me know what it is. It doesn't have to be, maybe what is happening in your specific experience is. I'd suggest everyone get together and work out a different system that is less problematic. Salat can be done within 5-10 minutes, so I don't think the best solution involves abruptly stopping the class entirely.You also didn't comment on the fact that by not accommodating Islamic religious practices, you are de facto excluding Muslims from the educational program, which undermines your goals. This is strange because it was most of the section you quoted and you only got as far as addressing the first sentence. I agree, but I don't feel that makes things unmanageable for an adult education class. I've had longer toilet breaks during a class than some prayer. Once there are a certain percent of the class leaving at the same time, it makes sense to deal with this in some way. Stopping the whole class seems excessive, but structuring the lesson in such a way as to avoid essential learning during salat, maybe doing exercises or a recap depending on where it falls and the subject and stuff seems like a reasonable compromise. Maybe if salat falls near a natural break time, adjust class time slightly where feasible. Is it feasible for there to be two classes that cover the same material that run at different times (This was the case for one adult education thing I did, but it was privately funded rather than publicly so...)?The idea of not having them there, in an area with a strong Muslim presence, seems self-defeating. OK - do you have evidence this is endemic? Can you give name to the culture? Or is it just people from lower educational backgrounds in general, which is typically immigrants from poorer nations? Is there any hope in segregating classes based on this? Any ideas for an intro class on classroom behaviour and western education that you need to behave and learn in in order to pass? I guess, because of the self-defeating nature of kicking them out, it makes some degree of sense to view expulsion as a last resort leading to a high tolerance for crap. I'm sure this issue vexes those education westerners sometimes too. I'm pretty sure the dominant culture is the favoured one, even as certain accommodations are being made for what seem like pragmatic purposes.Your solution to the problems seems to be to simply exclude the least cultured from the enculturation centres you were proposing. Well, it's an interesting consideration in any event.

Isn't this really what you are leaving unsaid?