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Author Topic:   Who & what are the demons ?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 239 of 349 (675200)
10-08-2012 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 238 by Straggler
10-07-2012 12:11 PM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
anything empirically detectable can be objectively evidenced.
I suppose this gets back to our imagination as source.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 238 by Straggler, posted 10-07-2012 12:11 PM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 10-08-2012 7:58 AM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 241 of 349 (675223)
10-08-2012 11:49 PM
Reply to: Message 240 by Straggler
10-08-2012 7:58 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Are you proposing some sort of "sixth sense" type means of detection.....?
I believe that it is possible, as I have "imagined/believed" such a scenario. No proof, however.......

This message is a reply to:
 Message 240 by Straggler, posted 10-08-2012 7:58 AM Straggler has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 243 of 349 (675233)
10-09-2012 7:45 AM
Reply to: Message 242 by Straggler
10-09-2012 7:43 AM


Re: Demons, Influence and Allowance
Straggler writes:
If I were to ask you how some non-materially detectable form of influence could interract with our physical brains what would you say.....?
You got me there. There is no objectiveevidence for any presumed supernatural phenomena, be it God, GOD, OGG, or demons. I maintain, however, that subjective evidence remains valid, at least for my own conclusions.

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 Message 242 by Straggler, posted 10-09-2012 7:43 AM Straggler has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 245 of 349 (676381)
10-22-2012 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 244 by Straggler
10-09-2012 9:38 AM


Subjective Evidence
Which subjective experiences qualify as evidence and which don't?
If you have a dream about a demon does that qualify as evidence of the actual existence of demons? If you have a dream about Aphrodite (for example) does that qualify as evidence of the actual existence of Aphrodite?
How would I know if I had a dream about a demon? The only subjective evidence that I would have is the way that my body/soul responded to the dream. If, for example, I broke out in a cold sweat, or was unable to move Paralyzed Wakefulness
Finally, should I approach the problem logically, reasonably, and rationally, or is that itself mean that I am in denial? Is spiritual experience untestable in the natural world?

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 248 of 349 (732172)
07-03-2014 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 150 by Straggler
08-27-2012 4:58 PM


Pope Francis and the demons
Straggler writes:
Either those who believe demons do exist are wrong or those who believe they don't exist are wrong. We may never know which. But we do know for a fact that some beliefs are just factually wrong.
How can it be otherwise?
Indeed. As I may have said before, I dont go out of my way to believe in the occult. I DO defend my belief in God,though I allow myself to question it.(as opposed to doubting it)
This was interesting:
VATICAN GIVES THUMBS UP FOR EXORCIST ASSOCIATION
The article states--in part:
quote:
More than his predecessors, Pope Francis speaks frequently about the devil, and last year was seen placing his hands on the head of a man purportedly possessed by four demons in what exorcists said was a prayer of liberation from Satan.
Apparently, one such recipient of blessing from the good Pontif himself still has issues.
Man in Pope Francis Exorcism Story Says He's Still Possessed by Demons

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 252 of 349 (733512)
07-17-2014 8:03 PM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
07-04-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
"Pope Francis and the demons" sounds like a Disney movie.
The main character in the movie is this guy from Canada who simply wants God to leave him alone and who resents the idea that God gets to treat humanity however He decrees. He finds some of the demons on the street...homeless and unkempt....and gives them some of his spare change. A friendship is forged. The autocratic Catholic Bishop hears of this and frantically calls the Vatican. "To The Popemobile", they shout! The climactic finale has Pope Francis on a snowmobile, heading the demons off at the pass...whereby our Canadian friend steps in front of the Pontif and begs him to lay off the poor demons....who are, after all, simply displaced people in need of a home.
Walt would of course turn over in his grave.

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 253 of 349 (739163)
10-21-2014 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 135 by ringo
08-22-2012 12:04 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
zombie writes:
If a demon can not influence a human to do anything that that human had not previously decided to do anyway - such as speaking in "otherworldly" voices - why do you need to postulate the existence of the demon at all?
Because of the otherworldly voices. The human freely decided to allow the inspiration of the demon in their lives and the otherworldly voices confirm the existence of the demon...not simply as a man making unduplicatable noises.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

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 Message 135 by ringo, posted 08-22-2012 12:04 PM ringo has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 256 of 349 (739200)
10-21-2014 3:12 PM
Reply to: Message 255 by ringo
10-21-2014 1:25 PM


Re: Maturity and Rationality in a Believer
zombie writes:
If your ear can hear it - i.e if it is a sound wave - then it can be duplicated. What maybe can not be duplicated is a glitch in your brain that causes you to think you hear something that isn't really there, that isn't really a sound at all.
I agree that any sound can be duplicated, but the technology or instrument must be present that duplicates it. There are certain sounds that no ordinary human can make.
As for the glitch in my brain...I will admit that I may have been hearing things and/or that I only thought I heard what I heard--except for the reaction from two other people present who also indicated that "yes...we all heard something"!! Perhaps my conclusion as to what the sound was was made premature and was fueled by confirmation bias.
All I know is that the incident freaked all of us out and were you to interview the witnesses they would confirm that fact.

...."When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean neither more nor less."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by ringo, posted 10-21-2014 1:25 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 12:03 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 258 of 349 (739380)
10-23-2014 1:58 PM
Reply to: Message 257 by ringo
10-22-2014 12:03 PM


How The Glitch Stole Christmas
zombie writes:
the glitch in your brain may be either hardware-related - e.g. hallucination - or software-related - e.g. a culturally-biased belief in spooks. A consensus can eliminate the former but not the latter.
Are you suggesting that a biased group of believers would more readily consider a woo explanation whereas a group of critical thinking skeptics would to this day have no conclusion for such an event?
I can see it now....
GOD: "I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life"
Critical Thinking Skeptics: We are currently interpreting all possible data and will arrive at our own consensus within our lifetime.
I wont argue that its better to ask more questions rather than jumping to conclusions...but one cannot remain forever uncommitted, can they?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by ringo, posted 10-22-2014 12:03 PM ringo has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 260 of 349 (746146)
01-03-2015 11:35 AM
Reply to: Message 251 by ringo
07-04-2014 1:27 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
Did you see the latest from Pope Francis?
Pope Francis declares evolution and Big Bang theory are real and God is not 'a magician with a magic wand'

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

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 Message 263 by Jon, posted 01-04-2015 5:40 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 264 of 349 (746286)
01-05-2015 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 263 by Jon
01-04-2015 5:40 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
My New Years was peaceful. I decided beforehand that I would rather start a year fresh rather than end a year wasted. It is a rare soul that can do both.
One sure way to wage effective spiritual war is to be intentional and patient.
What we say to ourselves and to others is very important. Words can either be used to bless or to curse.
And in the final analysis, are we not responsible for every word and sentence which comes out of our mouths and of every thought that we think?
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 263 by Jon, posted 01-04-2015 5:40 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 01-05-2015 11:19 AM Phat has replied
 Message 266 by ringo, posted 01-05-2015 11:40 AM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 269 of 349 (746370)
01-06-2015 2:27 AM
Reply to: Message 266 by ringo
01-05-2015 11:40 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
The battle is between our carnal nature(what we like to do in that it feels good and is often selfish) and our spiritual nature(altruistic, regarding others better than ourselves)

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

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 Message 266 by ringo, posted 01-05-2015 11:40 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 270 of 349 (746371)
01-06-2015 2:37 AM
Reply to: Message 265 by jar
01-05-2015 11:19 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
What is a spiritual war?
Perhaps the term "war" misleads some.
You yourself have described such a conflict.
quote:
Through a gift from GOD mankind was given the ability to know what is right from what is wrong.
GOD charges us to try to do Right, and to try not to do Wrong.
When you see an attractive girl,for example...and you are a teenager full of hormones...the first natural inclination is to try and have her.
This is the Yetzer Hara.
The second inclination is to bless her and keep your hands off of her since she is so beautiful and rare. This is the Yetzer Tov.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 265 by jar, posted 01-05-2015 11:19 AM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 275 of 349 (814043)
07-03-2017 4:41 PM
Reply to: Message 274 by ringo
01-06-2015 11:09 AM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
ringo in another thread writes:
I'm not buying it because I don't believe a real God would hide. I refuse to accept your excuse that your God is hiding. If He came out of hiding I would not refuse Him.
If your logic is correct, it would necessarily follow that everyone would have evidence and the entire world would see the obvious truth. Yet scripture tells us that a minority will believe and a majority will scoff.
If there is no evidence, you're allowed to believe but one belief is as good as another.
And you clarify:
riingo writes:
If there was something real outside our rational logic, how would we know?
Even those who believe in demons are looking at real manifestations, usually "odd behavior". The only difference between a scientific approach and theirs is that they let their beliefs color their conclusions.
I would argue that you refuse to allow any belief to color your conclusions---which may be a wise approach yet in many cases...including yours...leads to atheism.
Getting back to demons, however...I have seen enough subjective experiences to tentatively conclude they are real.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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 Message 274 by ringo, posted 01-06-2015 11:09 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 276 by jar, posted 07-03-2017 4:47 PM Phat has replied
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 277 of 349 (814093)
07-04-2017 10:53 AM
Reply to: Message 276 by jar
07-03-2017 4:47 PM


Re: Pope Francis and the demons
jar writes:
Why are demons only able to effect folk that believe in demons?
Why has there never been a case of a demon ever effecting an atheist or anyone who does not believe in demons?
As you may have mentioned before, anything that we ascribe supernatural elements to is not provable. Demons never affect unbelievers because demons are never ascribed as the cause. The cause is usually described as multiple personality disorder and/or schizophrenia. I'm not sure if you can state that there as never been a case...only that no case has been objectively proven. Which of course is true.
I am not claiming demons are a fact---only because I cannot show it objectively. You would probably assert that I prefer it to be true so that I have an excuse
other than human responsibility.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
"as long as chance rules, God is an anachronism."~Arthur Koestler

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 Message 276 by jar, posted 07-03-2017 4:47 PM jar has not replied

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