Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 64 (9163 total)
1 online now:
Newest Member: ChatGPT
Post Volume: Total: 916,419 Year: 3,676/9,624 Month: 547/974 Week: 160/276 Day: 0/34 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   extended evolutionary synthesis (EES)
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 11 of 20 (738915)
10-17-2014 4:04 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by RAZD
10-16-2014 11:50 AM


Re: extended awareness of biom\ecology interactions
An evolution in the way different aspects of biology are viewed as part of a whole, a synergistic view. This would of course include evo-devo and ecology in talking about any species, thus broadening the scope from species to species within habitat and interactions with other species in those habitats.
In my eyes, this is nothing more than discussing the complexity of natural selection. Some scientists want to treat the interaction of environment and genotype as an additional mechanism, but in the end I fail to see how it is any different than other selective pressures.
As an hypothetical, let's say that there is a developmental gene that causes newborns to have webbed feet if their mothers were in the water a lot. Obviously, this would be selected for. However, if the same phenotype were stimulated by desert conditions, then the trait would be selected against. In the end, each is a mutation that is passed through selection.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 8 by RAZD, posted 10-16-2014 11:50 AM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2014 4:49 PM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 13 of 20 (738924)
10-17-2014 5:33 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by RAZD
10-17-2014 4:49 PM


Re: iterative feedback response to different ecological challenges and opportunities
And the "new school" (both the SET and EES advocates in the article) view is that there is an interplay and that it is more of a symbiotic\partnership relationship, where organisms can alter the selective pressures by affecting the habitat to make it more beneficial to them, a feedback\cooperative interaction dance with multiple partners.
Darwin himself spoke of the interplay between symbiotes, parasites, inter- and intraspecies cooperation, and environment. That's as old school as it gets.
But this is just species against nature in this regard, whereas a more synergistic approach would look at the coastal ecology and see if these dogs affect it to their advantage - food sources etc - or other animals that are displaced (sea otters?) and how that changes the ecosystem.
Which genes get passed on in a changing environment is once again up to natural selection (and neutral drift).
The EES just seems to be be another way of saying, "Boy, natural selection can be really complex." I think we have known that for a long time now, and the old synthesis certainly didn't argue otherwise.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by RAZD, posted 10-17-2014 4:49 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 14 by herebedragons, posted 10-21-2014 9:01 AM Taq has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 15 of 20 (739211)
10-21-2014 5:34 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by herebedragons
10-21-2014 9:01 AM


Re: iterative feedback response to different ecological challenges and opportunities
Anyway, I don't think Darwin understood how deep those interactions actually go.
Then we are really just arguing about a difference in degree and not kind. A few quotes from Origin of Species:
"The missletoe is dependent on the apple and a few other trees, but can only in a far-fetched sense be said to struggle with these trees, for if too many of these parasites grow on the same tree, it will languish and die. But several seedling missletoes, growing close together on the same branch, may more truly be said to struggle with each other. As the missletoe is disseminated by birds, its existence depends on birds; and it may metaphorically be said to struggle with other fruit-bearing plants, in order to tempt birds to devour and thus disseminate its seeds rather than those of other plants. In these several senses, which pass into each other, I use for convenience sake the general term of struggle for existence."
"What a struggle between the several kinds of trees must here have gone on during long centuries, each annually scattering its seeds by the thousand; what war between insect and insect between insects, snails, and other animals with birds and beasts of prey all striving to increase, and all feeding on each other or on the trees or their seeds and seedlings, or on the other plants which first clothed the ground and thus checked the growth of the trees! Throw up a handful of feathers, and all must fall to the ground according to definite laws; but how simple is this problem compared to the action and reaction of the innumerable plants and animals which have determined, in the course of centuries, the proportional numbers and kinds of trees now growing on the old Indian ruins!"
The 3rd chapter describes many examples of just how complex the interaction is between species and environment.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/origin/chapter3.html
That's the thing though, selection works on phenotype, not genotype. We are just beginning to unravel the complexities of environment / phenotype interactions, such as methylation, epigenetics and development. It is not so much that these are different than other selective pressures or that they are additional mechanisms, it is just a matter of bringing the whole picture into focus - a "not missing the forest for the trees" sort of thing.
That is one reason why I see the EES as completely unnecessary. We already have an understanding of the mechanisms in play. It is just a matter of unwinding the complexity of their interaction. More importantly, the EES is a bit of salesmanship on the part of people such as Wright and Shapiro. This is certainly not the first time salesmanship has been used. In fact, a bit of flash is appreciated by most scientists. However, with the EES there seems to be more flash than substance. It is almost an attempt to save the excitement that was started by the theory of adaptive mutations, which inevitably sank when random mutations were found to be the cause.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by herebedragons, posted 10-21-2014 9:01 AM herebedragons has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 10038
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 18 of 20 (739326)
10-22-2014 5:51 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by zaius137
10-21-2014 11:29 PM


Re: iterative feedback response to different ecological challenges and opportunities
I suppose a updated version of ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny is in order because Haeckel’s fabrication is a bit worn out.
Haeckel's ideas were never widely accepted, and his drawings were really not that far off from accurate.
Noting that observable changes in genotype are beyond empirical observation,
We can empirically determine when mutations occur and where.
We have examples of a child's genome being compared to the parents' genomes. We have measurements of mutations caused by polymerases in PCR. There are tons of empirical measurements of mutagenesis.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by zaius137, posted 10-21-2014 11:29 PM zaius137 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by zaius137, posted 10-22-2014 10:14 PM Taq has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024