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Author Topic:   Quote mining? The Pilbeam quote...
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 4 of 43 (72740)
12-13-2003 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Zhimbo
12-13-2003 4:46 PM


Thank you for notifying me of your topic. I am studying the content of which I will certainly reply by 12-15-03.
If Milton has taken the quote out of context and I am convinced then I will plainly give you the credit for pointing this out, unlike the deliberate evasive responses I have been getting from other posters regarding the "convergence" issue in the evolution topic.
I also just want to point out that the title of this topic casts a negative shadow on quoting period. I guess this title exists out of the constant and infuriating practice of being quoted out of context.
However, the proverbial baby should not be thrown out with the bathwater.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Zhimbo, posted 12-13-2003 4:46 PM Zhimbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Zhimbo, posted 12-13-2003 9:01 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 6 of 43 (72863)
12-14-2003 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by Zhimbo
12-13-2003 9:01 PM


Richard Milton is the author of "Shattering the Myths of Darwinism".
And as you know I have been using him as my source to offer some evidence against evolution.
The first overall context is Milton's CLAIM that there isn't enough hard evidence in existence to remove ToE out of the theory category and into established fact. Part of the basis of this claim is his belief that contrary to popular opinion there is a paucity of transitional bones proving that mankind evolved from an ape/common ancestor. In fact, Milton says the glass case at Kensington is still empty.
To evidence this claim Milton includes in his book the quote by Leakey who is quoting David Pilbeam. In this quote Pilbeam states that the evidence they possess "is meagre" and thus incomplete.
Pilbeam's remark was in the context of the "fossil void" which is Leakey's characterization of the paucity of bones that exist to prove the transition of ape to upright man.
The "matter of fact assertion of the relatedness of the apes and humans...." IS NOT IN DISPUTE.
Milton and others have picked up on an honest statement/assessment made by two paleontologists. Of course these scientists believe man evolved from an ape/common ancestor, but they are simply saying that there is not enough evidence to fill the fossil void in order to claim what they are hoping to prove. In mainstream words; the missing link has not been found. And whatever evidence there is in support of the missing link is certainly not enough to claim victory.
I conclude Milton's quote of Leakey/Pilbeam to not be out of context since it was offered only to evidence that there is not enough proof for anyone to claim that the fossil void has been satisfactorily filled.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by Zhimbo, posted 12-13-2003 9:01 PM Zhimbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by NosyNed, posted 12-14-2003 5:36 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied
 Message 8 by Zhimbo, posted 12-15-2003 2:46 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 28 by MarkAustin, posted 03-30-2004 2:08 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 9 of 43 (73147)
12-15-2003 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by Zhimbo
12-15-2003 2:46 PM


All you can say is that Milton and myself cannot read very well ? This is your reply ? On this basis in this issue I claim victory.
When Pilbeam says the evidence is "meagre", what body of evidence is he referring to ? The answer lies in the context of Leakey's remark about the "fossil void" which preceded Pilbeam's quote.
It is very simple, Pilbeam said the evidence (at the time) that they possessed in the fossil void was meagre. This fossil void is the crucial evidence that is needed to conclusively prove the transitional period/missing link, this was the context and it is not a matter of opinion. Milton included this quote as evidence to back his claim that the "glass case at Kensington is still empty".
I have always claimed that there is not enough transitional fossils in existence to prove with certainty that evolution is true on the scale neo-Darwinists would have everyone to believe. And as of 1981 Dr.Leakey and David Pilbeam said the same thing, that it was meagre and another scientist from another discipline would conclude "there isn't enough to go on" Even though these two scientists believe that man evolved from an ape they were honest to admit that they cannot claim victory for their theory UNTIL the fossil void is satisfactorily completed.

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 Message 8 by Zhimbo, posted 12-15-2003 2:46 PM Zhimbo has replied

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 Message 10 by Zhimbo, posted 12-15-2003 9:20 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
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Message 11 of 43 (73592)
12-16-2003 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Zhimbo
12-15-2003 9:20 PM


It doesn't matter what Pilbeam would say if we asked him because the issue is was his statement taken out of context by Milton/Me.
Pilbeam's quote was in the context of what Leakey called the "fossil void", and this fossil void was characterized by Pilbeam as "meagre".
Milton offered this quote as evidence supporting his claim that there is not nearly enough fossil void evidence in existence to justify the victory claim of neo-Darwinism. Even member Darwinsterrer admitted the amount of evidence (transitional type/fossil void) by volume today is extremely low.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by Zhimbo, posted 12-15-2003 9:20 PM Zhimbo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by NosyNed, posted 12-16-2003 11:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
 Message 13 by Zhimbo, posted 12-17-2003 12:01 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 16 of 43 (73943)
12-17-2003 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by NosyNed
12-16-2003 11:54 PM


Re: Which void?
Thank you for your explanation of the larger picture and the smaller picture within, however we are debating ONE solitary issue here.
Did Milton present and use the quote in question out of context ?
Could I get a yes or a no to the following question : Pilbeam's adjective of "meagre" was said to describe the fossil void ?
If yes then which fossil void ? Milton's entire point is to evidence his contention that the transitional evidence is virtually non-existent.
Why can't Pilbeams quote be an honest assessment of the missing link evidence at the time of the quote ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 12 by NosyNed, posted 12-16-2003 11:54 PM NosyNed has replied

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 17 of 43 (73952)
12-17-2003 11:31 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by zephyr
12-17-2003 2:33 PM


I am impressed and stricken with laughter in your ability to paste and cut. I get your point but I truly fail to see how I have done what you are claiming.
Tell you what IF you can IN YOUR OWN WORDS explain my argument in context without cut/paste and then prove how I am in error I will straight out admit defeat and officially withdraw this evidence as some evidence against evolution.
What do you say ?
And NosyNed if you read this then the same applies to you.
And if Zhimbo reads this then the same applies to you.
Just remember my conditions stated above.

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Replies to this message:
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 Message 20 by Zhimbo, posted 12-18-2003 5:54 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 21 of 43 (74373)
12-19-2003 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by Zhimbo
12-18-2003 5:54 PM


Round and round we go.
Can I take a minute here and put everything in chronological order.
Way back in another topic I posted the Leakey/Pilbeam quote as evidence against the claim that the missing link has been found and established the ToE to now be a fact. Actually that was Milton's contention of which I agree with.
Milton/I are saying that the Leakey /Pilbeam quote to be an honest assessment of the amount of evidence that exists in the area called the "fossil void" by Leakey.
Milton/I are saying the Pilbeam quote becomes evidence that there is a meagre amount of total evidence proving the missing link.
I acknowledge that Pilbeam obviously believes that evolution is a fact, however his quote says what it means that there isn't enough evidence to go on and claim victory.
You disagree, and decided to create a topic for debate.
If I understand you correctly you are saying that Pilbeam was not referring to missing link evidence but something else.
I say he was referring to what Leakey called the fossil void and I and Milton say the fossil void in question is the crucial transitional/missing link evidence.
Pilbeam believes evolution to be a fact and the only controversies are minor and theoretical in areas of HOW it happens. I do not question or dispute that. But how does that negate what I believe to be his honest assessment of the fossil void evidence which he described as "meagre".
If you want to claim that he was not referring to the fossil void I am claiming then explain and prove from the text we are using.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by NosyNed, posted 12-19-2003 10:39 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 23 of 43 (74395)
12-20-2003 12:20 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by NosyNed
12-19-2003 10:39 PM


Re: Links and Voids
Yes, the fossil void AKA transitional fossils/bones between ape and upright man.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by NosyNed, posted 12-19-2003 10:39 PM NosyNed has replied

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3047 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 30 of 43 (110510)
05-25-2004 8:18 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by NosyNed
01-15-2004 6:29 PM


I lost track of this topic when the Forum was reorganized.
What questions remain ?
I thought I won this debate until this moment when I ran into it here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by NosyNed, posted 01-15-2004 6:29 PM NosyNed has not replied

  
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