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Author Topic:   Materialism
PaulK
Member
Posts: 12426
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 106 of 114 (738444)
10-10-2014 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
10-10-2014 4:45 PM


Re: Mind-Body Problem
I am asking you to support a claim which on the face of it is clearly false. We do not directly observe how the mind is produced nor do we understand how it is produced. We have no everyday observations or experience which could tell us whether the mind is the product of the brain or not. Again, if you want to honestly disagree it IS incumbent on you to produce actual observations and experiences which support your assertion. Resorting to angry bluster to evade the issue (again) only shows that - at the least - you DON'T know of any.

And you certainly haven't posted to such experiences "many times" in this thread. Again if you want to disagree it's pretty easy to link to the messsages in question.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 4:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9314
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 107 of 114 (738449)
10-10-2014 6:13 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
10-10-2014 4:45 PM


Re: Mind-Body Problem
Pointless

Edited by NoNukes, : PaulK has it covered


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 4:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9314
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 108 of 114 (738451)
10-10-2014 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straggler
10-10-2014 1:32 PM


Re: Mind-Body Problem
Do you think minds can exist independently of brains (or some other material equivalent)? If you do you are a dualist. If you don't you are a materialist.

I agree, but the mind/brain duality or lack thereof is just one implication of materialism. Materialism embraces all processes in nature and is not limited to the mind.

quote:
Materialism is a form of philosophical monism which holds that matter is the fundamental substance in nature, and that all phenomena, including mental phenomena and consciousness, are the result of material interactions.

Philosophical physicalism has evolved from materialism with the discoveries of the physical sciences to incorporate far more sophisticated notions of physicality than mere ordinary matter, such as: spacetime, physical energies and forces, dark matter, and so on. Thus the term "physicalism" is preferable over "materialism", while others use the terms as if they are synonymous.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Materialism

I'm pretty sure that the OP is using materialism in the sense described above.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straggler, posted 10-10-2014 1:32 PM Straggler has not yet responded

    
NoNukes
Member
Posts: 9314
From: Central NC USA
Joined: 08-13-2010
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 109 of 114 (738452)
10-10-2014 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Faith
10-10-2014 4:45 PM


Re: Mind-Body Problem
I shouldn't have to "point to" something every human being knows by observation and experience; OR, in fact I've already pointed to it many times.

In short what you are saying is that there is nothing really to debate regarding dualism and materialists. It is quite obvious that the materialists are wrong. We just need to consult the dictionary and common sense. It's obvious, right?

I'll note that your position on the issue is exactly the same as your position on evolution, the formation of the grand canyon, and many other subjects you take a position on here. Small wonder you always end up frustrated. Those kinds of arguments wouldn't convince a frat boy to take a sip of beer.


Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)

I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei

If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass


This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 4:45 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Ed Conrad 
Suspended Member (Idle past 648 days)
Posts: 7
From: Mahanoy City, PA USA
Joined: 10-12-2014


Message 110 of 114 (738754)
10-15-2014 9:53 AM


GREATERST CONSPIRACY IN THE HISTORY OF HISTORY
< CRIME IN RHYME
<
Evolutionists, their interests so vested
And Poor Truth, for too long molested.
Their deceit and deception
Near the point of perfection
If it were my call, they'd ALL be arrested
<
http://labourlist.org/...ads/2014/07/prison-bars-440x411.jpg
<
< ==============
<
Never in the history of History has as much physical
evidence existed to debunk and destroy an existing
scientific theory.
<
But it certainly DOES EXIST -- in spades -- concerning
the theory of man's evolution (and other creatures,
for that matter).
<
The discovery of thousands upon thousands of petrified
bones, teeth and even soft organs -- SOME HUMAN --
between coal veins has proven that Charles Darwin's
fable, "Origin of Species" isn't worth the papyrus
it was written on.
<
It means that man, in almost our present form, had
existed while anthracite was formed, and the most
golden rule of geology is that coal is at least
280 million years old.
<
Therefore, these discoveries certainly offer the
undeniable evidence that the majority of evolutionists,
atheists and physical anthropologists guilty of being
willful PARTICIPANTS in a monumental conspiracy
gainst mankind.
<
PETRIFIED BONES, TEETH, SOFT ORGANS
-- SOME HUMAN -- FOUND BETWEEN COAL VEINS
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/FINGERSx.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/z11calv.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/OldestHumanSkull.JPG
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/z8femur.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/.../page3_files/body_data/skulla.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/.../page3_files/body_data/skullb.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/newtibia.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/HumanJaw3.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/GallBladder1.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/HumanBrain.jpg
<
< =======================
<
< WHAT HONEST SCIENCE LOOKS LIKE
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/TestResults.jpg
<
State-of-the-art testing by American Medical Labs
revealed that at least six of Ed Conrad's fossils, all
bearing a distinct resemblance to human bones via human
comparative anatomy, contain dried blood and, in some
cases, other relative components.
<
This offers state-of-the-art scientific evidence that
Ed Conrad is right and the arrogant, ignorant, pompous
buffoons wearing the white coats and dunce hats are
dead wrong.
<
< =======================
<
The really scary part in all of this is how the bones,
teeth and even soft organs got broken and petrified.
<
It can mean only one thing: The humans and animals
that existed on earth eons ago were destroyed in an
earth-shattering catastrophe.
<
Anyone -- and I certainly mean ANYONE -- who doubts
that I've discovered thousands upon thousands of
petrified remains of man and animals is a fraud and
a phony.
<
The list includes the so-called "experts" at the
Smithsonian Institution, the University of California
at Berkeley, Harvard University, the U.S. Geological
Survey, Penn State University, the Paleontological
Research Institution, the University of Pennsylvania
and tenured-fossil professors of anthropology,
paleontology, geology amd physics -- to mention
just a few -- in America's universities.
<
I can ask "Why?" But I don't have to since I know WHY
this monumental hoax has long been perpetrated against
mankind.
<
It boils down to the protection of vested interests. The
Scoundrels of Science are fully aware that siding with
Truth can adversely affect their careers, their lucrative
weekly paychecks and their cushy positions.
<
God forbid, they dare not make any waves. So the mind-
boggling lie has gone on and on and on.
<
======================
<
OTHER DISCOVERIES BETWEEN COAL VEINS
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/Scorpion.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/OldestTool.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/MoreFossils.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/InSlate3.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/InSlate2.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/InSlate11.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/FirstDiscovery.jpg
<
========================
<
Oh, you want more? Okay!
<
HUMAN CRANIUM EMBEDDED IN A BOULDER
(Discovered Between Anthracite Veins)
<
http://www.edconrad.com/.../page3_files/body_data/skulla.jpg
<
http://www.edconrad.com/.../page3_files/body_data/skullb.jpg
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/SkullBoulderSide.jpg
<
The following photos were taken while the human skull in
the boulder was on display at an international exhibit
in Berlin, Germany.
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/SwitzerlandExhibit1.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/SwitzerlandExhibit2.jpg
<
=======================
<
Meanwhile, a variety of other state-of-the-art testing
has confirmed that Ed Conrad's mind-boggling discoveries
are Neither rocks nor concretions but fossils of creatures
that once lived, quite a few of them human.
<
They included testing for the presence of Haversian
canals (the tell-tale sign of bone), CATscans, and
SEM (scanning electronic microscope) investigation,
to mention just a few.
<
And let's NOT FORGET that the late Wilton M. Krogman,
one of the world's foremost human anatomists and
author of the book,"The Human Skeleton in Forensic
Medicine," had personally examined and tested one
of the discoveries and concluded that it's a calvarium,
a human skull with the eye sockets broken off.
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/z11calv.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/Skullx.jpg
<
"COME OVER HERE, DOCTOR.
I WANT YOU TO SEE THE OLDEST
HUMAN SKULL EVER FOUND."
<
-- Wilton Krogman to a colleague
< after confirming fossil is a human skull
<
http://www.edconrad.com/oldascoal/cmon_files/krogwskull.jpg
<
Scrapings from the object embedded in the boulder were tested
by American Medical Laboratories in Chantilly, Va. --
considered the most prestigious medical laboratory in the
world -- which documented that they contain DRIED BLOOD.
<
AML had performed testing on at least a half-dozen of Ed
Conrad's key specimens via Calculus Analysis by Crystal-
ography, the presence of blood was confirmed in an official
"Final Report" authorized by Dr. Nathan Sherman, director
of laboratories.
<
Blood not only was found in the skull-like object embedded
in the boulder but in the specimen that Krogman identified
as a calvarium, a human skull with the eye sockets broken
off; the fossil that he identified as a tibia; in two
specimens that appear to be human jawbones, and in others.
<
It's important to note that highly respected Dr. Geoffrey
Bourne, who had served as director of Yerkes Regional
Primate Research Center for many years, had tested one
of the discoveries between coal veins and identified it
as B-O-N-E in written correspondence.
<
==============================
<
KROGMAN IDENTIFIED THIS FOSSIL AS A TIBIA
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/newtibia.jpg
http://www.edconrad.com/images/bones.jpg
<
=======================
<
Here's a petrified dinosaur foot still embedded in slate.
http://www.edconrad.com/pics//z3dino.jpg
<
Here are several views of a portion of a giant prehistoric
scorpion identified as such by Krogman.
,
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/Scorpion.jpg
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/MoreFossils.jpg
<
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/LargeTooth5.jpg

<
====================
<
"We can forgive a child
who is afraid of the dark.
The real tragedy of life
is when men are afraid
of the light." -- Plato
<
< and
<
"You're not only fighting the man
in the ring, Ed. You're also fighting
the referee and the three judges."
-- Clayton Lennon, philosopher
<
< and
<
"Actually, we're only
in kindergarten in the
School of Knowledge."
< -- Ed Conrad
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/Dartboard.jpg
<
http://www.edconrad.com
<
ANOTHER CONSPIRACY AGAINST TRUTH
http://www.edconrad.com/pics/Miracle.jpg
http://www.edconrad.org


Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by Dr Adequate, posted 10-15-2014 10:39 AM Ed Conrad has acknowledged this reply

    
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15468
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


Message 111 of 114 (738760)
10-15-2014 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by Ed Conrad
10-15-2014 9:53 AM


Re: GREATERST CONSPIRACY IN THE HISTORY OF HISTORY
This is hilarious but off-topic.
This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by Ed Conrad, posted 10-15-2014 9:53 AM Ed Conrad has acknowledged this reply

  
Dr Adequate
Member
Posts: 15468
Joined: 07-20-2006
Member Rating: 3.8


(1)
Message 112 of 114 (738765)
10-15-2014 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 101 by Faith
10-10-2014 2:48 PM


Re: Mind-Body Problem
You are asking questions I've answered umpteen times already on this thread. I believe the relation of mind to brain is that the mind is the driver and the brain the machine, and that this is a matter we know from observation and experience.

But people who study the brain seem to know the opposite from their observation and experience.

The problem with the materialist view is that it ignores the amazing originality and individuality of mind. Imputing that quality to the firing of neurons takes some kind of reductionistic mentality that boggles MY mind.

Ah, the argument from personal incredulity. Have you ever convinced ayone of anything with that?

And in fact it ignores the mind's felt reality as opposed to the total lack of felt reality of the material side of things. We are aware of our own minds and we are aware of other people's minds far more directly than we are aware of anything about brains.

This isn't much of an argument. If I had measles, I would be far more aware of the rash and the fever than of the virus, but the virus is still the cause of the symptoms and not vice versa.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 101 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 2:48 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
ringo
Member
Posts: 12815
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005
Member Rating: 2.6


Message 113 of 114 (738836)
10-16-2014 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
10-10-2014 4:23 PM


Re: Mind-Body Problem
Faith writes:

Just more flat-out assertions and assumptions and statements of your own belief. One can only wonder where you get your certainty.


Seriously, you don't own a mirror, do you?
This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 10-10-2014 4:23 PM Faith has not yet responded

  
shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 196 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 114 of 114 (739683)
10-26-2014 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
10-08-2014 7:04 PM


Re: Amnesiac Homunculus
A person I know, in a normal state of mind, not through any special experiences, trauma or meditations or that sort of thing that might provoke it, described hovering above her body and looking down at her feet on the bed during what might have been a dreamlike state, but that's an unusual dream if it was a dream. I don't have any reason to doubt people when they describe such things myself,

Try the following experiment. Attend your friend while having them do a repeat of the floatation above their body while looking down at their body while you hold a few of many cards printed with various numbers beside her feet. Have them report the numbers they saw when they return to their body.

If out of body experiences were real and memory is recorded in the brain then how is it that there is any memory of those experiences? One brain state follows the next according to the laws of chemistry and physics. For your ideas to be correct there would have to exist a break in the laws of chemistry and physics in order for the mind to direct the brain to do anything at all. The opposite view that mind is the result of chemistry and physics is necessarily the correct view.

The only area that might afford a place for that to happen would be in the stochastic outcomes of quantum mechanics being "controlled" by the spirit or mind as you conceive it. But even though individual outcomes are stochastic the average outcomes are not. And there is Bell's theorem which disproves the existence of hidden variables in QM or IOW hidden causes for the stochastic nature of QM.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 10-08-2014 7:04 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
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