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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 166 of 234 (740168)
11-02-2014 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 165 by Tangle
11-02-2014 8:26 AM


Re: Remind me, how many angels are on that pin
We don't know. My question to you is what you think about faith in general. Im also more interested in the real angels that surround us and protect you rather than hypothetical ones. Why does evidence have to be a prerequisite?
And why do some equate belief in God with a belief in Santa Claus?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 165 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 8:26 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 9:49 AM Phat has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 167 of 234 (740170)
11-02-2014 9:48 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
11-02-2014 6:06 AM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
How do you know any of this?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 6:06 AM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 168 of 234 (740171)
11-02-2014 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 166 by Phat
11-02-2014 8:30 AM


Re: Remind me, how many angels are on that pin
Phat writes:
We don't know.
Quite.
My question to you is what you think about faith in general.
It's misguided and pointless.
Im also more interested in the real angels that surround us and protect you rather than hypothetical ones.
There are no 'real' angels. Obviously.
Why does evidence have to be a prerequisite?
Because without any evidence of 200 foot flying dragons, we can confidently say that they do not exist.
And why do some equate belief in God with a belief in Santa Claus?
Why wouldn't they? They are both equally mythical. The better question is why do some people believe in gods and angels (and dragons) for which there is no evidence?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 166 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 8:30 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 11:22 AM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 169 of 234 (740175)
11-02-2014 11:22 AM
Reply to: Message 168 by Tangle
11-02-2014 9:49 AM


Re: Remind me, how many angels are on that pin
Because without any evidence of 200 foot flying dragons, we can confidently say that they do not exist.
We? We who? Some of us have a rational faith without evidence. We as a people and a nation and a global culture are divided on this issue.
Besides...what is your confidence in?
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 168 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 9:49 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 170 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 11:50 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 170 of 234 (740176)
11-02-2014 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 169 by Phat
11-02-2014 11:22 AM


Re: Remind me, how many angels are on that pin
Phat writes:
We? We who?
Anyone who wishes to think rationally.
Some of us have a rational faith without evidence.
It is not possible to have a rational faith without evidence. What you have is faith without evidence. Your beliefs are irrational, by definition.
We as a people and a nation and a global culture are divided on this issue.
Believers are divided, atheists aren't. Believers believe in all sorts of weird gods and spirits and even when they believe in the same God, they can't agree on what that god wants. It doesn't get more irrational than that.
Besides...what is your confidence in?
What an odd question. The problem with irrational belief is that, amongst other things, it colours your view of everything else. It's apparently hard for a believer to imagine that it's possible to exist without belief. Most of them seem to think that if they stopped believing they'd lead a life of pure existential hedonism, rapin' and pillagin' and fornicatin' away.
My 'confidence' is in people, family, friends, colleagues and mankind generally. Plus my own abilities as a decent human being trying to lead a decent and productive life. Pretty much the same as you I'd say - just without the need to embarrass myself worshipping a non-existent super-being and hoping for an afterlife.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 169 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 11:22 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


(1)
Message 171 of 234 (740179)
11-02-2014 1:18 PM


There is no such thing as faith without evidence, it's just that people don't remember what persuaded them. The Bible is evidence, evidence of miracles for instance, seen by many witnesses. If you believe the witnesses you have the evidence of the miracles they saw. it's foolishness to deny that many honest witnesses. I believe what all the witnesses said about what happened as recorded in the Old Testament, as well as what all the witnesses said about what happened as recorded in the New Testament about what Jesus did, all the miracles he did and his resurrection from death. I consider that I have lots of evidence for my faith in him, in what he taught, in what he did, and beyond my own personal experience of that there are the thousands whose writings about all that also hang together and confirm it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 173 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 1:50 PM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 172 of 234 (740182)
11-02-2014 1:49 PM
Reply to: Message 164 by Phat
11-02-2014 6:06 AM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
Phat writes:
Evil would still potentially exist, but only for those who chose to actualize it. Humans would still be responsible for themselves.
So what you're saying is that Satan doesn't actually make any difference.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 6:06 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 1:52 PM ringo has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 173 of 234 (740183)
11-02-2014 1:50 PM
Reply to: Message 171 by Faith
11-02-2014 1:18 PM


Faith writes:
There is no such thing as faith without evidence, it's just that people don't remember what persuaded them.
Well at least that's a new excuse. Several billion people with selective amnesia - who would have thought it!
The rest is the usual refuted stuff.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 171 by Faith, posted 11-02-2014 1:18 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 1:57 PM Tangle has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 174 of 234 (740184)
11-02-2014 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by ringo
11-02-2014 1:49 PM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
ringo writes:
So what you're saying is that Satan doesn't actually make any difference.
No. What I am saying is that for everything to be fair, a choice between obedience and rebellion (thus evil) would still have to be offered. The gang leader of the rebels may have repented, but the rest of the bunch still has to have the free will to even be rebels in the first place.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by ringo, posted 11-02-2014 1:49 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 11-02-2014 2:27 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 175 of 234 (740185)
11-02-2014 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 173 by Tangle
11-02-2014 1:50 PM


Shine On You Crazy Diamond
The rest is the usual refuted stuff.
Subjective evidence is still evidence, in my book. Have I ever seen an angel? No. Have I ever seen God or Jesus? Maybe. A Spirit can shine through a willing vessel. You might scoff and say that its just humans being nice to one another, and I would disagree. Humans may be nice and open doors for each other at the local mall,church, or rational skeptics meeting...but cram a bunch of refugees into the Superdome after a hurricane and the real human nature comes out.
It takes a relationship with God to be nice then...and you likely will get persecuted for it on the spot.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 173 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 1:50 PM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 176 by Tangle, posted 11-02-2014 2:19 PM Phat has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(1)
Message 176 of 234 (740189)
11-02-2014 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 175 by Phat
11-02-2014 1:57 PM


Re: Shine On You Crazy Diamond
Phat writes:
Subjective evidence is still evidence, in my book.
Yes, it is, but by definition ONLY in your book. ie worthless as evidence to anyone else.
Have I ever seen an angel? No. Have I ever seen God or Jesus? Maybe. A Spirit can shine through a willing vessel.
Just words, Phat, sentimental, comforting biblical-sounding words.
You might scoff and say that its just humans being nice to one another, and I would disagree. Humans may be nice and open doors for each other at the local mall,church, or rational skeptics meeting...but cram a bunch of refugees into the Superdome after a hurricane and the real human nature comes out.
Humans being nice to one another and being nasty to one another are just different faces of the same coin. It's silly (and plain wrong) to credit the niceness to god and the nastiness to human nature.
It takes a relationship with God to be nice then...and you likely will get persecuted for it on the spot.
Now you've really pissed me off. Of course people do not have to have a "relationship with god" - whatever the hell that might mean - for people to be nice to each other. I'm nice to people all the time and I'm the biggest non-believer you'll ever meet. What utter, offensive, non-Christian, bullshit.
Explain yourself. Carefully.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 175 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 1:57 PM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 177 of 234 (740192)
11-02-2014 2:27 PM
Reply to: Message 174 by Phat
11-02-2014 1:52 PM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
Phat writes:
The gang leader of the rebels may have repented, but the rest of the bunch still has to have the free will to even be rebels in the first place.
So the leader is gone and the gang continues as before. What's the use of a leader?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Phat, posted 11-02-2014 1:52 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 2:10 AM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 178 of 234 (740216)
11-03-2014 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 177 by ringo
11-02-2014 2:27 PM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
Good point. Who needs a leader anyway? I do have cognitive dissonance in this ...in that I want Jesus to be a leader of everyone. First of all He loves us all, supposedly. Second, He wont let me get out of communion with Him. Even when I rebel, He woos me back. Honestly I am scared of the idea of not needing Him.
On the other hand, I don't really care if Satan repents or is vaporized, to be honest. Its the rest of the gang that I find myself dealing with.
That and my own adolescent conscience.
Which is why I want Jesus in charge. The buck stops with Him and not with me.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by ringo, posted 11-02-2014 2:27 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 11-03-2014 10:56 AM Phat has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 179 of 234 (740249)
11-03-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Phat
11-03-2014 2:10 AM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
Phat writes:
Which is why I want Jesus in charge. The buck stops with Him and not with me.
He's your Get-out-of-Hell-free card.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 2:10 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 180 by Phat, posted 11-03-2014 2:31 PM ringo has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 180 of 234 (740282)
11-03-2014 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 179 by ringo
11-03-2014 10:56 AM


Re: Fallen Angel Reform School
Not so much a get-out-of-hell-free card. You see, hell to me is an actual place..perhaps a state of mind also...where God does not exist. The place was initially created..by God...as an alternative for the spirits which chose to have no need nor want of heaven. As I may have said before a few times...God created potentialized evil. While some may argue that true freedom involves the choice of no God, I respectfully disagree. The reason is that God is so much more than a character in a book, a religious concept, or an authoritarian despot. God represents the very best of what freedom can mean....in the life we were given. Wanting Jesus to be in charge is not abdication of responsibility. It is freedom from the bondage of addiction, the idolatries of our modern world.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
If You Don't Stand For Something You Will Fall For Anything~Malcolm X

This message is a reply to:
 Message 179 by ringo, posted 11-03-2014 10:56 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 181 by Tangle, posted 11-03-2014 3:19 PM Phat has replied
 Message 185 by ringo, posted 11-04-2014 11:06 AM Phat has replied

  
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