Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
4 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Fusion Power on the way - at last ?
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 31 of 130 (740747)
11-07-2014 11:34 AM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
11-07-2014 10:01 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere.
It seems to me that something that works somewhere is better than something that works nowhere.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 10:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 12:05 PM ringo has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 130 (740754)
11-07-2014 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by ringo
11-07-2014 11:34 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
It seems to me that something that works somewhere is better than something that works nowhere.
Coal power works everywhere. So I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by ringo, posted 11-07-2014 11:34 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 11-07-2014 12:14 PM Jon has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 33 of 130 (740756)
11-07-2014 12:10 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by Jon
11-06-2014 9:06 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
With fusion generation you will still be stuck with these:
The local coal plant just built two towers like this, and property values in sight of the towers dropped.
Good for them. But they are only at 17%. ...
And growing. Germany is doing even better, and they have NO plans for nuclear generation.
... And it seems they are an unusually good location for wind generation. The same cannot be said for every region on the planet.
Same can be said for coal\gas but that didn't hold them back. Transmission lines are an existing facet that can be adapted to form a web between production and consumption.
As I have pointed out, the fact that the world has enough wind and sun to power the planet doesn't mean that the whole world does. As they say, location, location, location. There are plenty of places where these alternatives simply don't work.
Show me a place on the earth that does not get any sun or wind. One balances the other.
Imagine one of these:
with PV panels on the blades ...
The technology is booming in these fields, it is available NOW.
Enjoy.

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by Jon, posted 11-06-2014 9:06 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:11 PM RAZD has replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(2)
Message 34 of 130 (740758)
11-07-2014 12:14 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by Jon
11-07-2014 12:05 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
So I have no idea what the hell you are talking about.
Do I have to explain your own posts to you?
I was replying to Message 30 where you said, " Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere," in reply to Message 29 where NoNukes said, "It may well be that people are not putting solar panels or windmills in their back yards, but nobody objects to having those technologies put on the grid if it can be done economically. That's one way that we use solar farm and wind farms."
You seemed quite clearly to be referring to solar farms and wind farms, which do not work everywhere. And you have been touting fusion power, which doesn't work anywhere.
Clear yet?
("And you want to be my latex salesman?")

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 12:05 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 11-07-2014 12:25 PM ringo has replied
 Message 41 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:21 PM ringo has replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 35 of 130 (740759)
11-07-2014 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
11-07-2014 12:14 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
... I was replying to Message 30 where you said, " Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere," in reply to Message 29 ...
And here's one where solar pv does work:
Update Your Browser | Facebook
quote:
Energy needs at the school's ball fields will be completely supported by solar energy, while the high school will mainly be solar.
Solar power to reduce Iowa district's energy costs
WAYLAND, Iowa (AP) A southeast Iowa school district is nearing completion of an $800,000 solar power system that will drastically reduce its energy costs....
Our town is investigating doing this on all town buildings.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 11-07-2014 12:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by ringo, posted 11-07-2014 12:31 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 36 of 130 (740761)
11-07-2014 12:31 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by RAZD
11-07-2014 12:25 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
RAZD writes:
Our town is investigating doing this on all town buildings.
We have several apartment buildings in town with solar panels just like that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by RAZD, posted 11-07-2014 12:25 PM RAZD has seen this message but not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 37 of 130 (740763)
11-07-2014 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
11-07-2014 10:01 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
It's cumbersome and really only practical on the ground.
Really? Because I recall supervising the operations of a nuclear reactor with its accompanying a steam plant a few hundred feet under the ocean out in the North Atlantic in a fairly compact space. Beyond that though, given that we use steam plants in lots of places on the ground, your objection is pretty meaningless.
The Chicken seems to think we're aiming for energy independence, and I don't see how that has anything to do with this topic. If energy independence is what we want, then we should really be looking at upping our extraction of U.S. coal reserves (we have the largest in the world) and finding new ways of powering things with coal or its refined products.
Wrong Jon. Having a goal does not necessarily mean dropping all other priorities. And no amount of refining will change the fact that burning coal means burning carbon, and that's not good.
Nobody here is against using fusion power. The main difference between most of the other posters and you is that you are smitten with the promise of fusion without taking into account the reality.
Natural gas is also a fossil fuel
Of course it is. But since it's cheap and relatively plentiful it helps set the costs that we are willing to tolerate when we consider alternatives. Natural gas is one of the reasons why the price of gasoline has been dropping recently.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 10:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 130 (740770)
11-07-2014 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jon
11-03-2014 6:37 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck At First
Even if the calculations are just modern, think of the less developed countries that have lower safety standards for things like steam generators (which blow up if not properly built, used, and maintained).
You could not possibly have thought your argument through. Are you suggesting that you'd select option (d) from the question below:
Jon is contemplating giving a power plant to a country that is not technologically able to maintain a steam plant. Jon would use the following scheme:
a) Solar Power
b) Wind power
c) Hydro-power
d) Fusion reactor.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 11-03-2014 6:37 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 8:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 39 of 130 (740771)
11-07-2014 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by NoNukes
11-07-2014 12:38 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Really? Because I recall supervising the operations of a nuclear reactor with its accompanying a steam plant a few hundred feet under the ocean out in the North Atlantic in a fairly compact space. Beyond that though, given that we use steam plants in lots of places on the ground, your objection is pretty meaningless.
Good for you.
But I was specifically referring to the impracticability of steam power in space.
The main difference between most of the other posters and you is that you are smitten with the promise of fusion without taking into account the reality.
The reality is very clear to me: we will continue to use coal until either all the coal is gone or we develop economically-viable fusion.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 12:38 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 49 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 10:28 PM Jon has replied
 Message 68 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2014 11:10 AM Jon has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 130 (740772)
11-07-2014 1:11 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by RAZD
11-07-2014 12:10 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
Yes. But can I put those on my car?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by RAZD, posted 11-07-2014 12:10 PM RAZD has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 50 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 10:33 PM Jon has replied
 Message 51 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 10:34 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 52 by NoNukes, posted 11-07-2014 10:37 PM Jon has not replied
 Message 69 by RAZD, posted 11-08-2014 11:17 AM Jon has not replied
 Message 70 by ringo, posted 11-08-2014 11:34 AM Jon has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 130 (740774)
11-07-2014 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by ringo
11-07-2014 12:14 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Do I have to explain your own posts to you?
I was replying to Message 30 where you said, " Where they work they work. But they don't work everywhere," in reply to Message 29 where NoNukes said, "It may well be that people are not putting solar panels or windmills in their back yards, but nobody objects to having those technologies put on the grid if it can be done economically. That's one way that we use solar farm and wind farms."
You seemed quite clearly to be referring to solar farms and wind farms, which do not work everywhere. And you have been touting fusion power, which doesn't work anywhere.
Clear yet?
("And you want to be my latex salesman?")
Try to follow the arguments.
My statements regarding solar and wind not working everywhere were in regards to their potential to replace fossil-fuels.
We'll never see a fossil-fuel-less society so long as the alternatives can't be at least as good.
Fusion, if it gets going, will be better. And that is why it stands an actual chance of replacing fossil fuels.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by ringo, posted 11-07-2014 12:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by xongsmith, posted 11-07-2014 2:31 PM Jon has replied
 Message 67 by ringo, posted 11-08-2014 10:49 AM Jon has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 130 (740775)
11-07-2014 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
11-07-2014 10:01 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
And no one has yet addressed the hurdles to wide-scale use of the alternatives that I have brought up at least twice now.
Yes they have. The alternative is to hook stuff up to the grid.
And you have yet to face the fact that fusion power does not work, and that we have no idea what the cost per kilowatt/hr will turn out to be if we do get it to work. If you consider the other sources of energy to be a distraction when viewed in that context, then you are not being realistic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 10:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 7:14 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 43 of 130 (740795)
11-07-2014 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by NoNukes
11-06-2014 6:54 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck At First
NoNukes writes:
The waste products from coal are not radioactive, but non-radioactive is not the same as non-toxic.
Actually coal plants do produce radioactive waste. But, yes, the other waste is HORRIBLE. Coal: simply the worst way to make energy.
See this article in Scientific American:
Coal Ash Is More Radioactive Than Nuclear Waste - Scientific American
Edited by xongsmith, : simply

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by NoNukes, posted 11-06-2014 6:54 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 44 of 130 (740806)
11-07-2014 2:24 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
11-07-2014 10:01 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
What do we do with coal ash, Jon?
We are increasingly finding ways to recycle more of it into useful products.
What are we recycling nuclear waste into?
See Message 43,
See this article in Scientific American:
Coal Ash Is More Radioactive Than Nuclear Waste - Scientific American
Also see Coal and Water Pollution | Union of Concerned Scientists
Coal is the simply the worst possible way to make energy.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 10:01 AM Jon has not replied

  
xongsmith
Member
Posts: 2578
From: massachusetts US
Joined: 01-01-2009
Member Rating: 6.8


(1)
Message 45 of 130 (740808)
11-07-2014 2:31 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:21 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Jon writes:
Fusion, if it gets going, will be better. And that is why it stands an actual chance of replacing fossil fuels.
By the time fusion is ready to replace other energy sources, fossil fuel will no longer be in use. Fusion might be able to replace solar, wind and hydro-electric.

- xongsmith, 5.7d

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:21 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 7:20 PM xongsmith has not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024