Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
5 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Fusion Power on the way - at last ?
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(2)
Message 26 of 130 (740690)
11-06-2014 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jon
11-03-2014 4:18 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck At First
In its earliest stages fusion really will just be another way of generating steam power. But there are theoretical methods (with realistic potential) that abandon the use of steam for good. Upon reaching that point, the problems of humanity will essentially not exist.
What is the purpose or reason for eliminating steam? If it is eliminated, that's great, but why is that a priority for a fusion reactor?
The state of fusion technology is such that it is completely impossible to predict whether the technology will ever be cost effective. The promise of fusion all assume that breakthroughs for creating the high 'Q' values need to allow it to compete with other types of energy in cost come through. But right now, we don't even know if such a thing is possible.
So we continue to invest in fusion, but we simply cannot abandon other technologies for the sole reason that they are currently too expensive and then continue to work on fusion which is facing exactly the same issue. There is also the problem that power generation by fusion is not currently attainable at any cost.
Also, energy independence really is a silly goal.
Amusing.
Except that the wastes from nuclear power are way worse than the wastes from fossil fuels.
Radioactive waste disposal is a problem, but is the problem with disposal actually worse than the problems presented by burning fossil fuels or coal? I don't believe you can come close to making that case. The waste products from coal are not radioactive, but non-radioactive is not the same as non-toxic. And no amount of time will result in their hazard lessening.
I know this sounds dreamy, but it's supported by the evidence. The only thing lacking now is the physical means of getting there. But it seems as though we are slowly progressing in that direction
Right now, the only actual evidence we have is that fusion is not currently possible and we don't know if it will ever be cheaper than solar power. Currently solar power is drawing huge amounts of attention in NC. Everybody and their dog is trying to put together solar farms that service hundreds of families. So it is not just about a few hippies putting panels on their roofs anymore.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jon, posted 11-03-2014 4:18 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 11-06-2014 8:40 PM NoNukes has replied
 Message 43 by xongsmith, posted 11-07-2014 2:06 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 29 of 130 (740715)
11-06-2014 11:13 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by Jon
11-06-2014 8:40 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck At First
It's not a requirement for fusion. But it is a requirement for advancement. We can't live in the steam age forever.
What's the technological/economic objection to steam power? Jon thinks it is not cool is not a reason to abandon steam power.
It isn't just about their cost-effectiveness. It is about their general impracticability and the fact that no one wants them.
Your argument that nobody wants them is nonsense. It may well be that people are not putting solar panels or windmills in their back yards, but nobody objects to having those technologies put on the grid if it can be done economically. That's one way that we use solar farm and wind farms.
Do you honestly see coal-generated electricity falling out of use any time soon? The U.N. thinks we need to be completely off fossil fuels by 2100. Do you see that happening willingly with the current alternatives?
We will get huge reductions in the use of coal primarily because of the increase in availability of natural gas. Coal might well die off despite anything anti-environmentalists can do.
Unfortunately, that same affect is going to cause problems for most 'green' technologies. Fusion, despite its attractiveness is not here and it may not get here any time soon.
Care to elaborate?
Yes. I find it amusing that you label things as silly without argument and then ignore the issues associated with your own pipe dreams. You calling other people naive is pretty laughable.
Of course the problem with disposal of nuclear waste is worse than the problems of burning fossil fuels (which includes coal). We've actually developed dozens of ways of lessening the impact of fossil-fuel waste
What do we do with coal ash, Jon? That's the example I used. I'm asking you to stop mouthing platitudes "Of course it is worse..." and actually make an argument. Switching to asking me if I'm kidding just exposes that you don't actually have an argument.
Of course. But the question is rather that is a fad or the future.
It's the present. Fusion power is not the present. And more to the point, it's a counter argument to your insistence that nobody wants solar power.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by Jon, posted 11-06-2014 8:40 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 10:01 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 37 of 130 (740763)
11-07-2014 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
11-07-2014 10:01 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
It's cumbersome and really only practical on the ground.
Really? Because I recall supervising the operations of a nuclear reactor with its accompanying a steam plant a few hundred feet under the ocean out in the North Atlantic in a fairly compact space. Beyond that though, given that we use steam plants in lots of places on the ground, your objection is pretty meaningless.
The Chicken seems to think we're aiming for energy independence, and I don't see how that has anything to do with this topic. If energy independence is what we want, then we should really be looking at upping our extraction of U.S. coal reserves (we have the largest in the world) and finding new ways of powering things with coal or its refined products.
Wrong Jon. Having a goal does not necessarily mean dropping all other priorities. And no amount of refining will change the fact that burning coal means burning carbon, and that's not good.
Nobody here is against using fusion power. The main difference between most of the other posters and you is that you are smitten with the promise of fusion without taking into account the reality.
Natural gas is also a fossil fuel
Of course it is. But since it's cheap and relatively plentiful it helps set the costs that we are willing to tolerate when we consider alternatives. Natural gas is one of the reasons why the price of gasoline has been dropping recently.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 10:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:06 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 130 (740770)
11-07-2014 1:03 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Jon
11-03-2014 6:37 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck At First
Even if the calculations are just modern, think of the less developed countries that have lower safety standards for things like steam generators (which blow up if not properly built, used, and maintained).
You could not possibly have thought your argument through. Are you suggesting that you'd select option (d) from the question below:
Jon is contemplating giving a power plant to a country that is not technologically able to maintain a steam plant. Jon would use the following scheme:
a) Solar Power
b) Wind power
c) Hydro-power
d) Fusion reactor.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Jon, posted 11-03-2014 6:37 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 8:11 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 130 (740775)
11-07-2014 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Jon
11-07-2014 10:01 AM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
And no one has yet addressed the hurdles to wide-scale use of the alternatives that I have brought up at least twice now.
Yes they have. The alternative is to hook stuff up to the grid.
And you have yet to face the fact that fusion power does not work, and that we have no idea what the cost per kilowatt/hr will turn out to be if we do get it to work. If you consider the other sources of energy to be a distraction when viewed in that context, then you are not being realistic.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 10:01 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 7:14 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 49 of 130 (740873)
11-07-2014 10:28 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:06 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
But I was specifically referring to the impracticability of steam power in space.
So you think we should avoid using steam to generate electricity on the ground because we cannot use it in space? Generating energy in space is pretty low on the list of issues we absolutely must solve. We can get around the solar system burning carbon. Who gives a #$! about carbon emissions in space?
The reality is very clear to me: we will continue to use coal until either all the coal is gone or we develop economically-viable fusion.
Being 'clear to Jon' isn't much of an argument.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:06 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:10 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 50 of 130 (740874)
11-07-2014 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
Yes. But can I put those on my car?
Can you put a fusion reactor in your car?
Cars can utilize the output of any source that can generate electricity because we can use electricity to charge batteries and capacitors.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:11 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:22 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 130 (740875)
11-07-2014 10:34 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
hhhhhh
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:11 PM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 52 of 130 (740876)
11-07-2014 10:37 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Jon
11-07-2014 1:11 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
triplicate
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 1:11 PM Jon has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 53 of 130 (740877)
11-07-2014 10:41 PM
Reply to: Message 48 by Jon
11-07-2014 8:11 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
That quote was a reply to Cat Sci regarding a graph posted in Message 17 about the safety of current energy production methods.
Does it really matter why you said it? Fusion would still not be the answer for situations where we cannot trust people to operate a steam plant. Just about all of the other options would much simpler to operate than a fusion reactor.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 48 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 8:11 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:33 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 55 of 130 (740881)
11-07-2014 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Jon
11-07-2014 11:10 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Where did I ever make that argument?
That's the conclusion that results from the dumb arguments you did make.
I asked you for the reason why we need to get rid of steam which is used to generate energy from multiple sources on earth, and which will probably be used even with fusion.
The only real answers you've given so far is that steam cannot be used in space or that it's old fashioned. Both of those answers are BS.
You've also made some complaints about other power sources not fitting in vehicles. Well you aren't going to put a fusion reactor in a car either.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:10 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:29 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 58 of 130 (740884)
11-07-2014 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
11-07-2014 11:22 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
But solar, hydro, and wind don't offer us a substantial amount more energy than we can get from fossil fuels. In one of the articles I linked to, an estimation was given that solar power requires about two times the amount of land area as coal power.
That statement does not make the case you are claiming. Particularly if the coal land use includes the coal mine. Wind power can in some cases use zero land area. Solar power on roof tops uses otherwise unusable land area.
Can you give me some numbers to demonstrate the potential for solar or wind to replace fossil fuels?
Isn't this something I should have expected you to do?

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:22 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:38 PM NoNukes has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 61 of 130 (740887)
11-07-2014 11:41 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Jon
11-07-2014 11:22 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
But solar, hydro, and wind don't offer us a substantial amount more energy than we can get from fossil fuels. In one of the articles I linked to, an estimation was given that solar power requires about two times the amount of land area as coal power.
That statement does not make the case you are claiming. Particularly if the coal land use includes the coal mine. Wind power can in some cases use zero land area. Solar power on roof tops uses otherwise unusable land area.
There is not an infinite amount of land. But that observation alone does not show us that there is not enough.
Can you give me some numbers to demonstrate the potential for solar or wind to replace fossil fuels?
Isn't this something I should have expected you to do? You have made unevidenced claims that there is not enough capacity.
There are no realistic numbers on how much of our energy can be replaced by fusion because we have no idea of the what it will really cost.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:22 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 62 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:48 PM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 130 (740889)
11-07-2014 11:55 PM
Reply to: Message 59 by Jon
11-07-2014 11:33 PM


Re: All Good Things Suck ” At First
Of course it matters why I said it. The discussion about safety had nothing to do with fusion.
It doesn't matter. You've made the argument that fusion reactors can go everywhere. Here you say that there are limitations on steam so that steam cannot go eveywhere.
Your arguments are inconsistent because a culture that cannot operate a steam plant has no business fiddling the dials on any kind of nuclear reactor. It doesn't matter whether you link the arguments or I linked them.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:33 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 65 by Jon, posted 11-08-2014 12:01 AM NoNukes has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 64 of 130 (740890)
11-07-2014 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 62 by Jon
11-07-2014 11:48 PM


Re: solar and wind in a distributed web -- attuned to life
Let's leave fusion out of the discussion for now.
Okay.
think it would be great to get off fossil fuels.
Me too. But failing being able to eliminate the use of fossil fuels, it would be great to reduce their use.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 62 by Jon, posted 11-07-2014 11:48 PM Jon has seen this message but not replied

  
Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024