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Author Topic:   The C.C.O.I. (Christian Cult Of Ignorance) and Willful Ignorance
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 332 of 675 (729620)
06-15-2014 9:59 PM
Reply to: Message 328 by Phat
06-15-2014 10:38 AM


Re: From another closed topic
Sheesh Phat. You are still willfully lying to yourself it seems as well as conflating wisdom with bullshit.
The fact that GOD could provide a method or mediation for us to understand Him...if but a little...is quite possible.
Okay. Explain how that is done or could be known?
Are you suggesting that the closer we are to claiming to understand GOD, the less it makes GOD out to be? I don't deny that GOD is far beyond our capacity to ever fully understand. I am arguing the idea that we may be able to get a glimpse of how GOD is because GOD allowed the communion to take place. Not because of any understanding we ourselves ever arrived at.
You are just bending over kissing your ass and spouting nonsense. How do you determine that you are communing with God or getting a glimpse of God instead of just a con man, liar, carny pitchman or bad burrito?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by Phat, posted 06-15-2014 10:38 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by Faith, posted 06-15-2014 10:23 PM jar has replied
 Message 342 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 9:44 AM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 333 of 675 (729621)
06-15-2014 10:23 PM
Reply to: Message 332 by jar
06-15-2014 9:59 PM


Re: From another closed topic
Phat is right. You could even say that the purpose of salvation is to restore to us the ability to communicate with God which was lost to Adam and Eve when they disobeyed. If human beings are made in the image of God the least that means is that our minds or spirits were created with enough affinity with His to make such communication possible. We don't need to know how this happens but all born-again Christians have had the experience of knowing God's mind on particular subjects through the Holy Spirit who is given to believers. If you don't understand these things the reason is obvious, you deny God, you deny everything revealed in the Bible, you are so far from born again you are dead again.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by jar, posted 06-15-2014 9:59 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 06-15-2014 11:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 334 of 675 (729622)
06-15-2014 11:04 PM
Reply to: Message 333 by Faith
06-15-2014 10:23 PM


Re: From another closed topic
We don't need to know how this happens but all born-again Christians have had the experience of knowing God's mind on particular subjects through the Holy Spirit who is given to believers.
How exactly do you know? How do you differentiate between the Holy Spirit and a Bad Burrito?
If you don't understand these things the reason is obvious, you deny God, you deny everything revealed in the Bible, you are so far from born again you are dead again.
Well. that is just another example of you lying and your dishonesty as usual. I do not deny God as you know.
Born again is another of the Carny Con jobs it seems. How do you know you are born again? Why does it seem that those who are Born Again can never be honest?
Have you ever read the Bible Faith. You know that the Bible itself says that Adam and Eve did not lose the ability to communicate with God when they disobeyed. Why must you always misrepresent what the Bible actually says Faith?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 333 by Faith, posted 06-15-2014 10:23 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 5:37 PM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 335 of 675 (729667)
06-16-2014 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 334 by jar
06-15-2014 11:04 PM


Re: From another closed topic
jar writes:
How do you differentiate between the Holy Spirit and a Bad Burrito?
I can tell. What I cant do is explain to you what I feel. You seem to be very disrespectful at times also...claiming that I am lying and claiming that I dreamed all this up. Thats your character, though. You have many good traits and a few bad ones. Let me just say though---bad burritos are felt in the intestines and stomach. Not so with the awareness of GOD in us. Have you ever read the Bible, jar? Do you not see where there are reports of men who knew GOD well?

When I use a word, Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, it means just what I choose it to meannothing more nor less.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 334 by jar, posted 06-15-2014 11:04 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 336 by Theodoric, posted 06-16-2014 6:16 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied
 Message 338 by jar, posted 06-16-2014 8:38 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(1)
Message 336 of 675 (729668)
06-16-2014 6:16 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Phat
06-16-2014 5:37 PM


Re: From another closed topic
Do you not see where there are reports of men who knew GOD well?
Yes and I have seen reports of flying saucers, loch ness monster, sasquatch and tea partiers with critical thinking skills.
Reports are not evidence of existence. You need to look at the evidence that comes with the reports to see if it is credible. So far none of the above or men that knew some god well are credible.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 5:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 337 of 675 (729669)
06-16-2014 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by Phat
02-19-2014 11:43 AM


Re: Believe It or Not
Of course. God could force everyone to acknowledge His presence but it is said that the Spirit is a perfect gentleman.
Of course I suppose that to a logical mind, He could send a lifeboat, a helicopter and a paramedic should you ever need them.
Perhaps the bigger question is whether or not you would recognize the ringtone when He did call you.
Gosh, you are talking a lot about what God could or could not do.
How do you know?? What is the evidence for this that doesn't start with making tons of assumptions about God.
Is this known as 'making it up on the fly'
In absence of evidence and real world data, anything can be claimed.
But, can you show those claims are true?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by Phat, posted 02-19-2014 11:43 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 11:01 AM ramoss has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 338 of 675 (729670)
06-16-2014 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 335 by Phat
06-16-2014 5:37 PM


Re: From another closed topic
I can tell. What I cant do is explain to you what I feel. You seem to be very disrespectful at times also...claiming that I am lying and claiming that I dreamed all this up. Thats your character, though. You have many good traits and a few bad ones. Let me just say though---bad burritos are felt in the intestines and stomach. Not so with the awareness of GOD in us.
Once again you simply avoid answering the question. Actually it's possible to test to see if it was a bad burrito so that can be checked.
The question is "How do you tell that what you feel is caused by the Holy Spirit?"
What tests do you do?
Have you ever read the Bible, jar? Do you not see where there are reports of men who knew GOD well?
Of course I have read the Bible and yes there are lots of instances in the Bible stories about people who thingk the know God but in most cases the story goes on to show they don't know God. But the stories are usually a matter of personal presence, that God is physically there.
The more common story is of the person struggling to figure out what to do.
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 335 by Phat, posted 06-16-2014 5:37 PM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 339 of 675 (741382)
11-12-2014 12:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by jar
07-02-2007 1:23 PM


Choice Or Nah?
This is an old Great Debate topic between Jar and myself, and I want to take this opportunity to open it up to everyone. Feel free to comment.
Phat writes:
Basically, some folks believe that humanity is aware of God but that some of us have become more enlightened by accepting God into our hearts and minds. The argument would then be that only those who have this spirit of God become sons of God, while the rest of the folks are left out in the cold.
I used to believe this dogma until I realized that the ones who were supposed to have the importation of exclusivity had no better insight or revelation than anyone else.
My question: Why do you believe that a God who chose only some of the people (or who foreknew that only some would choose)would thus be an evil God?
jar writes:
If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.
If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.
If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish.
If God creates everyone and if we live our lives and make our decisions based on experience and/or logic,reason,and reality then I would argue that we willfully condemn ourselves through the choices that we make.
In order for this to be possible, God would never choose whom to "save" and whom to punish. We become the decisions that we make.
jar writes:
If God knows the end results then all of the responsibility for the end result lies with God.
How so? If I know the ending of a movie and yet if the characters in the movie essentially write their own scripts how am I responsible for what they choose to write---simply by knowing?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by jar, posted 07-02-2007 1:23 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 340 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 8:53 AM Phat has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 340 of 675 (741412)
11-12-2014 8:53 AM
Reply to: Message 339 by Phat
11-12-2014 12:58 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
Learn to READ Phat.
If you created the characters and had foreknowledge of the end then you are responsible for what is done.
quote:
If GOD is the creator, GOD creates everyone.
If GOD then chooses only some of those She creates and condemns the others, then GOD creates only to punish.
If GOD foreknows the results and still goes on to create folk, then GOD creates only to punish.
Like so many it seems you tend to pick one line out of a series and try to deal with it without the context of the whole.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 339 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 12:58 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 9:27 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 341 of 675 (741415)
11-12-2014 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 340 by jar
11-12-2014 8:53 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
maybe im just a poor listener or a sloppy learner...but I try to understand. I suppose I need to slow down and read more...grasping context before providing answers.
But I do disagree with your first line.
jar writes:
If you created the characters and had foreknowledge of the end then you are responsible for what is done.
If you created the characters with a brain and decision making capabilities, it would be irrelevant if you somehow foreknew the ending. Are you suggesting that we cant really have free will if God foreknows our eventual outcome?
How are we supposed to insist that God cannot know the ending until we actualize it? (Come to think of it, this is a logical request, however.)
Maybe you do have a point. Maybe Gods foreknowledge is played out through our decisions...the only real way that we could have free will. I'll have to think more about this one...

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 340 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 8:53 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 343 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 10:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 342 of 675 (741419)
11-12-2014 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 332 by jar
06-15-2014 9:59 PM


Testing and Discriminating
jar writes:
How do you determine that you are communing with God or getting a glimpse of God instead of just a con man, liar, carny pitchman or bad burrito?
First off, allow me to explain my thought process in context. I have a real life and it is quite busy. I take care of my 92 year old Mother, I volunteer with the state, I attend church and do outreach, I work at a grocery store and also attend union steward meetings, when I can. In addition to this, I often peruse the internet during my downtime. I am a man of faith---hopefully a thinking man---and so I delight in participating in forums such as this one to bounce ideas off of others, practice forming my own beliefs by explaining them to others, and listening to what others say as well. So that brings us to your question.
There is no surefire way to know that I am communing/communicating with God. I believe that He lives in us--that is that His Spirit is in communion with some if not all of humanity, but there is no real way to prove this. I can, by the process of elimination, trim the list a bit.
(In the last 48 hours I have eaten no burritos or any tainted food...to my knowledge) I listen to many who claim to be Pastors, so being deluded by a con job is a distinct possibility. The only way to test this is through judging the character...based on spending time with these people and dialoging/communicating...as well as the reports of others who know them.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 332 by jar, posted 06-15-2014 9:59 PM jar has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 343 of 675 (741422)
11-12-2014 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 341 by Phat
11-12-2014 9:27 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
If you created the characters with a brain and decision making capabilities, it would be irrelevant if you somehow foreknew the ending. Are you suggesting that we cant really have free will if God foreknows our eventual outcome?
Correct.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 341 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 9:27 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 344 by Jon, posted 11-12-2014 10:32 AM jar has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 344 of 675 (741425)
11-12-2014 10:32 AM
Reply to: Message 343 by jar
11-12-2014 10:13 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
If someone knows what their sibling is going to say before they say it, does that take away from their sibling's free will to say what they want to say (or not)?

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 343 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 10:13 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 345 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 10:50 AM Jon has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 345 of 675 (741429)
11-12-2014 10:50 AM
Reply to: Message 344 by Jon
11-12-2014 10:32 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
That is irrelevant in this case since the person did not create with foreknowledge of the outcome the sibling.
The issue in this case is the act of creation.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 344 by Jon, posted 11-12-2014 10:32 AM Jon has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 346 by Phat, posted 11-12-2014 10:56 AM jar has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 346 of 675 (741435)
11-12-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 345 by jar
11-12-2014 10:50 AM


Re: Choice Or Nah?
jar writes:
The issue in this case is the act of creation.
Duly noted. I am beginning to rethink my position on this issue. If those christians who believe that God desires a sort of spiritual communion with us are correct, it would follow that such a God should not interfere with the outcome of human lives through the action of creation...specifically creative foreknowledge. This lends support to the argument that God saves everybody. To be fair to free will, however, humans would also have to have a decision to reject Gods offer of communion.
Edited by Phat, : fixed quote

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo

This message is a reply to:
 Message 345 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 10:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 347 by jar, posted 11-12-2014 10:58 AM Phat has replied
 Message 351 by Jon, posted 11-13-2014 11:47 AM Phat has replied

  
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