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Author Topic:   Morality! Thorn in Darwin's side or not?
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 347 of 438 (742982)
11-25-2014 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 346 by ringo
11-25-2014 10:50 AM


Ringo writes:
Morals are a natural offshoot of social behaviour, so they most likely go back at least as far as the early mammals.
I have a lot to think about, because I have never heard this approach on the development of morals before.
What struck me about your earlier post was the application of Romans, which in essence speaks against exclusivity practiced by religions, and you had daringly and rightfully honored that text by saying it scoops up all of humanity.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 346 by ringo, posted 11-25-2014 10:50 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 348 by New Cat's Eye, posted 11-26-2014 12:32 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 349 by ringo, posted 11-26-2014 11:09 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 351 of 438 (743128)
11-27-2014 7:23 AM


To all of the above posts,
The conditions needed for life demand, altruism which is apparent on any level of life. Let's not call it altruism but mutuality, or mutually beneficial relationships.
Every relation in nature has pay offs and prices.
So if morals were developed then, they would be derived or enhanced or refined, mutual benefits.
We often see self sacrifice, not in a romantic sense, but placing oneself in between the danger and the endangered.
Somehow the morals fully developed will not be based on pure self preservation but of self sacrifice.
It seems that such a move would leave a population open to disaster, yet how many animal types practice this with great success?
These concepts have always been the essence of true religion, because they are in harmony with nature to some degree. But in some ways they are different, in that they call for intelligent moves rather than rash and desperate moves.
This is so different and contrary to earlier teachings on evolution and science, which hammered n the ideas of fight, flight reproduce only scenarios.
Every show on animals was interpreted like that, and still is.
It's a turn around of philosophies...

Replies to this message:
 Message 352 by Stile, posted 11-27-2014 8:45 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 353 by Tangle, posted 11-27-2014 9:00 AM Colbard has not replied
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 Message 355 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-27-2014 10:56 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 356 of 438 (743250)
11-28-2014 10:16 PM


"Rising higher and higher on the moral pedestal, evolution carries mankind to a point of perfection, where he is god."
- Satan
Note from "Deceived Captives"

Replies to this message:
 Message 357 by Minnemooseus, posted 11-28-2014 10:29 PM Colbard has not replied
 Message 358 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-29-2014 1:40 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 11-29-2014 11:22 AM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 359 of 438 (743263)
11-29-2014 7:49 AM


I never dreamed that one day evolution would drink from the cup of morality and kill itself. I am so happy I'm dancing.

Replies to this message:
 Message 360 by Tangle, posted 11-29-2014 8:26 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 361 by Theodoric, posted 11-29-2014 9:29 AM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 364 of 438 (743338)
11-29-2014 11:56 PM
Reply to: Message 361 by Theodoric
11-29-2014 9:29 AM


Theodoric writes:
Is this like declaring you won and leaving?
No, I'm not leaving, I'd miss getting hit by you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 361 by Theodoric, posted 11-29-2014 9:29 AM Theodoric has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 365 of 438 (743339)
11-29-2014 11:58 PM
Reply to: Message 362 by ringo
11-29-2014 11:22 AM


Ringo writes:
In evolution, there is no "higher"; there is no "perfection". There is only fitness for the current conditions.
A very good answer coming from your stance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 362 by ringo, posted 11-29-2014 11:22 AM ringo has seen this message but not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 366 of 438 (743341)
11-30-2014 12:16 AM
Reply to: Message 363 by jasonlang
11-29-2014 1:31 PM


Jasonlang writes:
"perfect" morality is relative.
Thanks for the summarized intro that's good English.
So if is relative for a group, it can also be relative for individuals, right?
But in a group the majority tries to keep the rule. Let's hope we are not born into a baby burning cult, or in many cases let's hope we are not born female.
If there is any morality in a society named so or considered to be so, then there must also be equal versions of immorality.
History proves that there a lot of both.
If these values are just relative to culture and circumstance, and can be so diverse so as to actually contradict each ideal?
It is vanity because all life is temporary, and what follows the death of one and their ideals, can be replaced by another.
It is assumed by evolution that this will be an upward progress, not to be enjoyed by the predecessors - at all. A pointless existence. In the end you are nothing, forgotten, less than a howl in the wind. That is immoral don't you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 363 by jasonlang, posted 11-29-2014 1:31 PM jasonlang has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 370 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 1:27 AM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 367 of 438 (743342)
11-30-2014 12:26 AM


Life and love
The moral laws of God demand that whatever is given life, has it permanently, and should there be any disasters then provision should be made for its full recovery, without interfering with free choice.
If you are alive, the justice of God ensures your eternal survival, unless that justice is scorned as of no value, because it may demand 'unwelcome' changes for the better.
That puts life, love and morality on an equal plain with one law for all, whereas in evolution, its every man or group or nation to its own. And as we know there is no end in sight for that scenario, because even if an ideal global utopia is built (as it will be shortly), it could be over within a few years, due to mortality.
Edited by Colbard, : shorten

Replies to this message:
 Message 368 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2014 1:02 AM Colbard has replied
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Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 371 of 438 (743352)
11-30-2014 5:47 AM
Reply to: Message 368 by Dr Adequate
11-30-2014 1:02 AM


Re: Life and love
Dr Adequate writes:
Where are you getting your information about God from? Does he speak to you, or do you just make stuff up?
I am generally deaf to spiritual knowledge, so I have to get clues from the KJV, people, nature and life, and work on that.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 368 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2014 1:02 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 373 by Dr Adequate, posted 11-30-2014 3:59 PM Colbard has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 372 of 438 (743353)
11-30-2014 5:55 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by NoNukes
11-30-2014 1:27 AM


NoNukes writes:
I suppose that if someone believed all of existence was about them, then the fact that their culture continued to progress after their death would seem unfair. However such a belief would be irrational.
Morals are rational. As rational as the predictability of physical laws.
And if that is true then it opens up the second scope by which to measure nature.
Two perspectives of knowledge, the natural and the spiritual, and if understood correctly they agree.
It is rational to expect life everlasting according to moral law, but irrational if there was no more life, as you said.
Edited by Colbard, : add

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by NoNukes, posted 11-30-2014 1:27 AM NoNukes has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 374 by Taq, posted 12-01-2014 3:42 PM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 401 of 438 (743823)
12-05-2014 6:53 AM
Reply to: Message 374 by Taq
12-01-2014 3:42 PM


Tag writes:
From what you have presented, only the natural can be said to be knowledge. The spiritual is based on belief which is the opposite of knowledge.
Forgetting my beliefs, it would be true that if the belief is correct, then its results would promote truth and discovery, even faster than trial and error.
If the belief is false, including the belief in a theory, then it will be struggling to make headway with practical applications.
Genuine spirituality is natural congruent with the universe, false spirituality is a lie.
In other words whatever science proves to be correct is truth and spirituality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 374 by Taq, posted 12-01-2014 3:42 PM Taq has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 414 of 438 (744098)
12-08-2014 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 413 by NoNukes
12-07-2014 3:48 PM


NoNukes writes:
For humans a model in which ethics and morals are learned seems to work pretty well.
Learned? From what?
What law is the basis for human laws if not the law of God?
Thou shalt not, disrespect parents, kill, commit adultery, steal, lie, and envy.
If you find a better one from inflatable worm world, let us know.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 413 by NoNukes, posted 12-07-2014 3:48 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 415 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 9:14 AM Colbard has replied
 Message 418 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-08-2014 12:04 PM Colbard has not replied
 Message 419 by ringo, posted 12-08-2014 12:14 PM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 416 of 438 (744108)
12-08-2014 9:34 AM
Reply to: Message 415 by jar
12-08-2014 9:14 AM


Re: Read the Bible
Jar writes:
The only basis for morality should be learned behaviors and empathy.
The God found in the Bible is often amoral at best and immoral at times needing to be chastened and corrected by a human.
Have you ever even read the Bible Colbard?
I don't need to, because nearly everyone here can already tell me what I know and don't know, I'm not sure at which Uni they studied, but I feel honored at best.
Sounds like you have been coached by men of the apron.
Edited by Colbard, : No reason given.
Edited by Colbard, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 415 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 9:14 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 417 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 9:50 AM Colbard has replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 427 of 438 (744447)
12-11-2014 9:12 AM
Reply to: Message 417 by jar
12-08-2014 9:50 AM


Re: Read the Bible
Jar writes:
You don't know anything about the Bible or Christianity or Science or Honesty or Morality or evidence or debate or discussion for starters.
If you did then you would know that the Bible says mankind has the same capability to know right and wrong as God does thanks to the great gift given in Genesis 2&3 fable.
Classic freemason teaching

This message is a reply to:
 Message 417 by jar, posted 12-08-2014 9:50 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 429 by jar, posted 12-11-2014 9:24 AM Colbard has not replied
 Message 430 by Theodoric, posted 12-11-2014 10:44 AM Colbard has not replied

  
Colbard
Member (Idle past 3390 days)
Posts: 300
From: Australia
Joined: 08-31-2014


Message 428 of 438 (744449)
12-11-2014 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 419 by ringo
12-08-2014 12:14 PM


Ringo writes:
Experience. The human race is self-educated in terms of morality. If morality was "imparted" by some omniscient, omnipotent, omnivorous alien overlord, it ought to work better than it does.
Keep thinking.
Power does not grant a love response.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 419 by ringo, posted 12-08-2014 12:14 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 431 by ringo, posted 12-11-2014 11:02 AM Colbard has not replied

  
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