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Author Topic:   Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 181 of 405 (743499)
12-01-2014 5:10 PM
Reply to: Message 177 by PaulK
12-01-2014 3:33 PM


Re: Enough is enough
Calvin says God directed the occurrence of the Fall, he doesn't say God put the ideas in our heads. So far quote after quote after quote says only that God governs or rules or directs what is already there, never says He originated it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 177 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2014 3:33 PM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by PaulK, posted 12-01-2014 5:48 PM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 182 of 405 (743500)
12-01-2014 5:12 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
12-01-2014 5:08 PM


Re: Enough is enough
The counsels and actions of men are originated by men.
So then, that is the limit of God's potency.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 5:08 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 5:21 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 183 of 405 (743502)
12-01-2014 5:21 PM
Reply to: Message 182 by New Cat's Eye
12-01-2014 5:12 PM


Re: Enough is enough
But they can't do anything unless He wills it, directs it, etc.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-01-2014 5:12 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
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PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 184 of 405 (743504)
12-01-2014 5:48 PM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
12-01-2014 5:10 PM


Re: Enough is enough
quote:
Calvin says God directed the occurrence of the Fall, he doesn't say God put the ideas in our heads
That doesn't answer my argument, and this seems to confirm what I said.
With regard to secret movements, what Solomon says of the heart of a king, that it is turned hither and thither, as God sees meet, certainly applies to the whole human race, and has the same force as if he had said, that whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God. And certainly, did he not work internally in the minds of men, it could not have been properly said, that he takes away the lip from the true, and prudence from the agedtakes away the heart from the princes of the earth, that they wander through devious paths

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 Message 181 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 5:10 PM Faith has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 185 of 405 (743506)
12-01-2014 5:52 PM
Reply to: Message 183 by Faith
12-01-2014 5:21 PM


Re: Enough is enough
If they can't do it unless God wills it, then it does not originate in man, it originates with God.
You're contradicting yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 5:21 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 6:08 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 186 of 405 (743507)
12-01-2014 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 185 by New Cat's Eye
12-01-2014 5:52 PM


Re: Enough is enough
No, you are experiencing a problem reading or you haven't bothered to read the thread. The ideas are conceived by us, their execution is allowed or disallowed, organized, arranged, directed, governed, etc. by God.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-01-2014 5:52 PM New Cat's Eye has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 188 by New Cat's Eye, posted 12-01-2014 6:53 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 189 by Theodoric, posted 12-01-2014 7:05 PM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 187 of 405 (743508)
12-01-2014 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 180 by Faith
12-01-2014 5:08 PM


Ipse Dixit
governed by his providence, not initiated by him. The counsels and actions of men are originated by men.
* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.
* Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God.
* God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections.
* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.
* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.
He uses the inclinations of people as his instruments. The inclinations are already there in the created being.
* God was the author of that trial of which Satan and wicked robbers were merely the instruments.
You are the one saying God originates the thoughts, Calvin isn't.
* These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence
* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.
You are the one saying God originates the thoughts
I'm barely saying anything. I'm quoting Calvin at you. Word for word.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 5:08 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 188 of 405 (743510)
12-01-2014 6:53 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Faith
12-01-2014 6:08 PM


Re: Enough is enough
The ideas are conceived by us,
If God isn't conceiving them, then that is a limit of his potency; our conception.
their execution is allowed or disallowed, organized, arranged, directed, governed, etc. by God.
According to Calvin, their conception is from God as well.
No, you are experiencing a problem reading or you haven't bothered to read the thread.
No, I get it: You want to call yourself a Calvinist but you can't bring yourself to accept his ramifications.
That you think the problem lies in others is just your cognitive dissonance.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 6:08 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 189 of 405 (743511)
12-01-2014 7:05 PM
Reply to: Message 186 by Faith
12-01-2014 6:08 PM


Re: Enough is enough
So you don't follow what Calvin wrote. You seem to be barely a partial Calvinist. How does your head not explode holding all of these conflicting beliefs.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 6:08 PM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 190 by jar, posted 12-01-2014 7:13 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 190 of 405 (743512)
12-01-2014 7:13 PM
Reply to: Message 189 by Theodoric
12-01-2014 7:05 PM


Re: Enough is enough
It's easy when take two fowl and take seven fowl are the same thing.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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 Message 189 by Theodoric, posted 12-01-2014 7:05 PM Theodoric has not replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 455 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 191 of 405 (743513)
12-01-2014 7:54 PM
Reply to: Message 187 by Dr Adequate
12-01-2014 6:19 PM


Re: Ipse Dixit
So for the Calvinist, we might be considered to ...be an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of underdone potato" in the belly of God.
[/seasonal reference]
Edited by Capt Stormfield, : edit premature send.

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 192 of 405 (743514)
12-01-2014 7:56 PM


Fortunately salvation doesn't depend on Calvin's theology being correct, I just hate the way you all treat him. He's one of the greatest theologians according to the best preachers out there and you treat him like dirt the way you treat true believers in general like dirt and even treat God like dirt.
But again nothing crucial is riding on his theology and I'm tired of arguing it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Replies to this message:
 Message 193 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-01-2014 8:14 PM Faith has replied
 Message 195 by Capt Stormfield, posted 12-01-2014 8:42 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 201 by NoNukes, posted 12-02-2014 2:43 AM Faith has not replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 193 of 405 (743517)
12-01-2014 8:14 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
12-01-2014 7:56 PM


Fortunately salvation doesn't depend on Calvin's theology being correct, I just hate the way you all treat him. He's one of the greatest theologians according to the best preachers out there and you treat him like dirt ...
Yeah, we defame Calvin by accusing him of being a Calvinist, and traduce him by saying that he held the opinions we quote from his books.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 7:56 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 194 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 8:38 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 194 of 405 (743521)
12-01-2014 8:38 PM
Reply to: Message 193 by Dr Adequate
12-01-2014 8:14 PM


You defame him by accusing him of arguments that make God evil. Which is caused by your not understanding his arguments though you so arrogantly think you do, think you understand them better than Calvinists and better than Calvin himself.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 193 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-01-2014 8:14 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Capt Stormfield, posted 12-01-2014 8:46 PM Faith has replied
 Message 199 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-02-2014 12:25 AM Faith has not replied

  
Capt Stormfield
Member (Idle past 455 days)
Posts: 428
From: Vancouver Island
Joined: 01-17-2009


Message 195 of 405 (743522)
12-01-2014 8:42 PM
Reply to: Message 192 by Faith
12-01-2014 7:56 PM


He's one of the greatest theologians according to the best preachers out there...
Great news, "Preacher Rated" theologians! Here, let me divine who the "best preachers" are - WooooEeeeWoooEeeeWooo - Oh! Oh! I'm seeing a misty image...it's getting clearer...they're...they're...they're the ones that agree with you! Give me air! Give me air! I need to recover!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 192 by Faith, posted 12-01-2014 7:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
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