Is Calvinism a form of Gnostic Christianity?

No, you're reading Calvin wrong. I've been over this. See post #82.More later, I'm busy.

But Calvin writes: "they can neither conceive any mischief, nor plan what they have conceived [...] unless in so far as he commands". They can't think of doing wrong unless God makes them do so. Otherwise, what becomes of his sovereignty? And obviously in order for them to think of it, he has to think of it first. Well of course he did; he put it there. We'll come back to that. For now the question is what Calvin's theology is. No, I took the much quicker and easier expedient of reading what Calvin wrote. That's just what he says, Faith. Again, I'm just saying what Calvin said. I don't. I said that he did impute it to God, you, I gathered, were trying to deny it. Did we switch ends at half-time or something? Right. But in saying so, he is not denying that there's a cause in predestination. He's certain that there is.

Well, so far so good. It is Calvin's view that if there was no God, which there is, and if I had free will, which I don't, then I'd think all sorts of naughty things on my own account. But it is also Calvin's view that there is a God, that I don't have free will, and that God decides what I think. "By his providence, not heaven and earth and inanimate creatures only, but also the counsels and wills of men are so governed as to move exactly in the course which he has destined." --- Calvin, InstitutesAnd how else is God to maintain the complete sovereignty that you credit him with --- that you boast of crediting him with? If I can think something that he didn't make me think, then there is one part of the universe which is free and independent, and that one part, of all un-Calvinistic things, the will of a man. In which case, you should be an Arminian.

I think the problem is more that communication is possible. That's why I can quote Calvin at you 'til the cows come home:* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.* Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and employs their iniquities to execute his Judgments. The modesty of those who are thus alarmed at the appearance of absurdity might perhaps be excused, did they not endeavour to vindicate the justice of God from every semblance of stigma by defending an untruth. It seems absurd that man should be blinded by the will and command of God, and yet be forthwith punished for his blindness. Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God. He himself, however, openly declaring that he does this, repudiates the evasion. That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.* God was the author of that trial of which Satan and wicked robbers were merely the instruments.* With regard to secret movements, what Solomon says of the heart of a king, that it is turned hither and thither, as God sees meet, certainly applies to the whole human race, and has the same force as if he had said, that whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God. And certainly, did he not work internally in the minds of men, it could not have been properly said, that he takes away the lip from the true, and prudence from the agedtakes away the heart from the princes of the earth, that they wander through devious paths.* But nothing can be clearer than the many passages which declare, that he blinds the minds of men, and smites them with giddiness, intoxicates them with a spirit of stupor, renders them infatuated, and hardens their hearts.* Satan himself performs his part, just as he is impelled [...] Satan is also said to blind the minds of those who believe not (2 Cor. 4:4). But how so, unless that a spirit of error is sent from God himself, making those who refuse to obey the truth to believe a lie?* God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections.* These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.* I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself.* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.

Now, the only difference between me and Calvin --- so far as this conversation goes --- is that he thinks he is pious in saying this, whereas I think he is unwittingly presenting a reductio ad absurdum of Christianity. He writes: "Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God". Let us leave aside the genocides and the serial killers for once, and consider this: in that case, every time a teenager conceives of a dirty little fantasy to masturbate over, God thought of it first. Before the foundations of the Earth were laid, before the heavens were spread, God's sublime wisdom and infinite holiness were dedicated to thinking out what little Johnny would think about his hot cousin while he was jerking it. And in his infinite wisdom he came up with a detailed fantasy of anal rape. God thought of it first."Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory."

But it is a system of theology. And what Calvin says is this:* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.* Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and employs their iniquities to execute his Judgments. The modesty of those who are thus alarmed at the appearance of absurdity might perhaps be excused, did they not endeavour to vindicate the justice of God from every semblance of stigma by defending an untruth. It seems absurd that man should be blinded by the will and command of God, and yet be forthwith punished for his blindness. Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God. He himself, however, openly declaring that he does this, repudiates the evasion. That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.* God was the author of that trial of which Satan and wicked robbers were merely the instruments.* With regard to secret movements, what Solomon says of the heart of a king, that it is turned hither and thither, as God sees meet, certainly applies to the whole human race, and has the same force as if he had said, that whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God. And certainly, did he not work internally in the minds of men, it could not have been properly said, that he takes away the lip from the true, and prudence from the agedtakes away the heart from the princes of the earth, that they wander through devious paths.* But nothing can be clearer than the many passages which declare, that he blinds the minds of men, and smites them with giddiness, intoxicates them with a spirit of stupor, renders them infatuated, and hardens their hearts.* Satan himself performs his part, just as he is impelled [...] Satan is also said to blind the minds of those who believe not (2 Cor. 4:4). But how so, unless that a spirit of error is sent from God himself, making those who refuse to obey the truth to believe a lie?* God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections.* These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.* I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself.* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.So what are we to say --- that Calvin was right when he said it, but I'm wrong when I quote him saying that "the sum of the whole is this"? I'm just quoting what he said. If there is an error, it is on his part.

Really, what seems to be going on is this. You say that Calvin is right and the Arminians are wrong. Then I quote Calvin at you. Then you explain to me that Calvin's words should be interpreted as though he was an Arminian and not a Calvinist. Well, Calvin was a Calvinist. I'm fairly sure.

That's what I was trying to get you to agree with.So ... as I said ...Now, the only difference between me and Calvin --- so far as this conversation goes --- is that he thinks he is pious in saying this, whereas I think he is unwittingly presenting a reductio ad absurdum of Christianity. He writes: "Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God". Let us leave aside the genocides and the serial killers for once, and consider this: in that case, every time a teenager conceives of a dirty little fantasy to masturbate over, God thought of it first. Before the foundations of the Earth were laid, before the heavens were spread, God's sublime wisdom and infinite holiness were dedicated to thinking out what little Johnny would think about his hot cousin while he was jerking it. And in his infinite wisdom he came up with a detailed fantasy of anal rape. God thought of it first."Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory."

And that's the bit that you are apparently trying to deny.

* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.* Satan and all the wicked are so under the hand and authority of God, that he directs their malice to whatever end he pleases, and employs their iniquities to execute his Judgments. The modesty of those who are thus alarmed at the appearance of absurdity might perhaps be excused, did they not endeavour to vindicate the justice of God from every semblance of stigma by defending an untruth. It seems absurd that man should be blinded by the will and command of God, and yet be forthwith punished for his blindness. Hence, recourse is had to the evasion that this is done only by the permission, and not also by the will of God. He himself, however, openly declaring that he does this, repudiates the evasion. That men do nothing save at the secret instigation of God, and do not discuss and deliberate on any thing but what he has previously decreed with himself and brings to pass by his secret direction, is proved by numberless clear passages of Scripture.* God was the author of that trial of which Satan and wicked robbers were merely the instruments.* With regard to secret movements, what Solomon says of the heart of a king, that it is turned hither and thither, as God sees meet, certainly applies to the whole human race, and has the same force as if he had said, that whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God. And certainly, did he not work internally in the minds of men, it could not have been properly said, that he takes away the lip from the true, and prudence from the agedtakes away the heart from the princes of the earth, that they wander through devious paths.* But nothing can be clearer than the many passages which declare, that he blinds the minds of men, and smites them with giddiness, intoxicates them with a spirit of stupor, renders them infatuated, and hardens their hearts.* Satan himself performs his part, just as he is impelled [...] Satan is also said to blind the minds of those who believe not (2 Cor. 4:4). But how so, unless that a spirit of error is sent from God himself, making those who refuse to obey the truth to believe a lie?* God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections.* These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.* I admit that by the will of God all the sons of Adam fell into that state of wretchedness in which they are now involved; and this is just what I said at the first, that we must always return to the mere pleasure of the divine will, the cause of which is hidden in himself.* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence.But how can he govern Johnny's ideas without originating them? He decides that Johnny should think a thing, then he makes him think it. That means that God thought of it first. "Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God". And "God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases".Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.* Whatever we conceive in our minds is directed to its end by the secret inspiration of God.* God not only uses the agency of the wicked, but also governs their counsels and affections.* God both directs men’s counsels, and excites their wills, and regulates their efforts as he pleases.* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence. * God was the author of that trial of which Satan and wicked robbers were merely the instruments. * These things, which men do perversely, are of God, and are ruled by his secret providence* The sum of the whole is this,since the will of God is said to be the cause of all things, all the counsels and actions of men must be held to be governed by his providence. I'm barely saying anything. I'm quoting Calvin at you. Word for word.Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

Yeah, we defame Calvin by accusing him of being a Calvinist, and traduce him by saying that he held the opinions we quote from his books.

I think I understand them just as well as Calvin did, which is why I am able to communicate my idea of Calvin's opinions by, y'know, quoting his words. The question of whether I understand his arguments can hardly arise --- I am repeating his arguments.

C'mon, Faith, we've had all sorts of silly arguments from you over the years, but now you're defending Calvin from the imputation of being a Calvinist.This is the distinctive feature of Calvinism, it's what distinguishes it from generic Protestantism: the notion that God is so sovereign as to dispose of our wills just like he does everything else. If you don't like it, you don't have to believe it. But Calvin did believe it, and said it repeatedly, clearly, and distinctly.

I'm pleased to note that Calvin agrees with me explicitly: