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Author Topic:   The Nonsense of Revelation 13 Economics
lightz1 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1373 days)
Posts: 3
Joined: 12-11-2014


Message 91 of 274 (744529)
12-11-2014 9:29 PM


You got your point! and i want intruduce a nice game

______________________
More Exciting News: Asshole's spam content deleted.

Edited by Adminnemooseus, : Delete spam link.


    
Jeremy86
Junior Member (Idle past 1175 days)
Posts: 1
From: Alberta, Canada
Joined: 06-28-2015


(1)
Message 92 of 274 (761123)
06-28-2015 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jar
10-09-2010 6:13 PM


I've never heard of Rev 13 prophesying a monetary system... but here's a breakdown of those verses as I've studied them:

A tiny bit of backstory needed though, we'll start with verse 11.

11 - 13: Then I saw another wild beast ascending out of the earth, and it had two horns like a lamb, but it began speaking like a dragon. It exercises all the authority of the first wild beast in its sight. And it makes the earth and its inhabitants worship the first wild beast, whose mortal wound was healed. And it performs great signs, even making fire come down out of heaven to the earth in the sight of mankind.

So, beast number two. It has two horns, representing a dual partnership between world powers. It comes out of the earth, not the sea, meaning it spawned from what was already in existence. It's the final world power mentioned in the Bible, the British-American dual power that rules the planet. It's two lamb horns makes it look mild, unoffensive, enlightened. But it's dragon speech means it uses pressure, threats, full on warfare against anyone who disagrees with their views of democracy and "freedom". It makes people worship the wars of the past, WW1, WW2, rememberance day, etc. etc, further strengthening the national patriotism that divides the world. Thus, worship is turned to the original fractured 7 headed wild beast. The great signs it performs, obvoiusly, are the massive technological advances we've seen in the last century, John making reference to Elijah's story (1 kings 18:21-40) where he made fire come down from heaven as proof of his authority.

14: It misleads those who dwell on the earth, because of the signs that it was permitted to perform in the sight of the wild beast, while it tells those who dwell on the earth to make an image to the wild beast that had the sword-stroke and yet revived.

The purpose of the Image (like any other image of a god figure) is to promote worship of the Wild Beast and perpetuate its existence (as you know, a god without worshipers is dead) In the timing of events, the Image is made after the Beast recieved its deathblow and was healed, so after WW1.

15: And it was permitted to give breath to the image of the wild beast, so that the image of the wild beast should both speak and cause to be killed all those who refuse to worship the image of the wild beast.

The second Wild Beast (aka British-American power, see above) gives life to the Image, so that it's alive and can function. This is the beginning of a new and different power, created by the Brits and Americans and initially known as the League of Nations. It "speaks", making claims that it is the only one who can bring peace and security to the world. But in reality, all it can really do is speak. It "causes to be killed" nations who disagree with it's ideologies, expelling them, enforcing sanctions and whatnot.

16 - 18: It puts under compulsion all people—the small and the great, the rich and the poor, the free and the slaves—that these should be marked on their right hand or on their forehead, and that nobody can buy or sell except a person having the mark, the name of the wild beast or the number of its name. This is where it calls for wisdom: Let the one who has insight calculate the number of the wild beast, for it is a man’s number, and its number is 666.

Six is symbolic in the Bible for imperfection, one short of a perfect 7. Also, words or phrases are repeated three times for great emphasis in other parts of the Bible. Therefore the name/number 666 represents an extreme imperfection, massive failure. And the name given to the Wild Beast (the first one) is 666. Calling it a man's number, John confirms this is no spirtitual or demonic entity. The beast is a symbol of earthly human government.

In Deut 7, God tells his people to put his words on their heart and soul, and put them on their hand and their forehead. In Rev 14, the 144000 anointed ones are said to have the name of the Father and of Jesus written on their foreheads.

So in a similar way, anyone buying or selling or being involved in day to day society in this failure world would have to accept that mark on their hand and forehead in order to be accepted into the world. Refusal of this mark leads to being oppressed and attacked. If you live your life in a Christian way, you will never become rich. You will never be a decorated hero. You might be jailed. Religions will attack you and kill you (lookin at you, ISIS). Basically, doing things God's way in Satan's world leads to a tough life.

TL;DR, the marks on the hands and foreheads are completely symbolic, as is the large majority of the book of Revelation. Compare Deuteronomy 11:18 for the symbolism, also Revelation 14:1.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jar, posted 10-09-2010 6:13 PM jar has responded

Replies to this message:
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jar
Member
Posts: 30934
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004
Member Rating: 1.6


Message 93 of 274 (761125)
06-28-2015 2:46 PM
Reply to: Message 92 by Jeremy86
06-28-2015 2:43 PM


An interesting epistle but does it have anything to do with the topic?

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Straightshot
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 94 of 274 (767064)
08-25-2015 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 93 by jar
06-28-2015 2:46 PM


Jar

I like your opening post related to Revelation 13

I am a prophecy teacher with about 40+ years in the study and also post on a number of Internet social media boards

Hope I can contribute to this forum regarding the Lord's more sure word of prophecy [2 Peter 1:16-21]

I believe that this alone proves out the authenticity of His Word and who He is


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 Message 93 by jar, posted 06-28-2015 2:46 PM jar has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 08-25-2015 10:33 PM Straightshot has responded

    
Phat
Member
Posts: 11625
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.4


Message 95 of 274 (767085)
08-25-2015 10:33 PM
Reply to: Message 94 by Straightshot
08-25-2015 5:13 PM


Beasties and Bibles
Welcome to EvC Straightshot.

What do you make of the Beast who was, is not, and yet is? Is there a symbolism in this?

Edited by Phat, : No reason given.


Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. –RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." –Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 94 by Straightshot, posted 08-25-2015 5:13 PM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 96 by Straightshot, posted 08-26-2015 11:50 AM Phat has acknowledged this reply

  
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 96 of 274 (767136)
08-26-2015 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 95 by Phat
08-25-2015 10:33 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Phat

Thanks for the welcome

I will start with an overview and if you have further questions I will answer

Satan is the one who is the perpetrator of his beast in the little horn of Daniel's visions

Satan is the "god" of this present world, but the focus of the Bible prophets is primarily upon Israel surrounded by the nation's virulent enemies in the Middle East

So Satan's nesting in the region has been long and directed toward the controversy between Issac and Ishmael which the Lord intentionally set up long long ago .... this same controversy is still on going today between Israel and most of the populations in the region are primarily Muslim

Satan hates the Lord .... and he hates Israel, so he has devised a strategy to usurp the Lord and to destroy His nation at the end of this present age [Ezekiel 38; 39; Daniel 11:41; Micah 5:5-6]

Here is the human little horn, a king of the northern Middle East who will arise as an Islamic Caliph in the region of Syria/Iraq today [same as the ancient Seleucid Empire north of Israel]

This king will arise during the 70th week decreed for Israel still pending [same as the coming tribulation] .... in the same region that was the core of the earlier ancient Assyrian Empire [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 11:36-45; 12;7; Micah 5:5-6]

The first beast of Revelation is not human, but a fallen angel who does Satan's bidding in the Middle East and rules over 7 human Middle Eastern kingdoms and related king positions there [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

5 of these kingdoms are now historical with the 5th ending just before the first century, this kingdom [head of the beast] fell and Abaddon/Appolyon was sent to the abyss .... still there as we speak

He will soon be released to rule over the Middle East again for a short time during the coming tribulation period .... a smaller kingdom at first [the 6th], and then the next [7th] divided/expanded kingdom with 10 other human kings, the divided kingdom of iron and clay [Daniel 2:33; 2:40-43]

Abaddon/Appolyon once "was" ruling over Middle Eastern kingdoms ..... and then was "not".... but he is coming to rule there again .... and yet "is"

This rebel angel of Satan's choice will fully possess and become the human little horn of Daniel's visions at the time of the end .... a first experience for humanity to be exposed by this strange combination [2 Thessalonians 2:1-12]

Here is a truth that one should not miss in the study of Satan's beast

The 70 weeks of years decreed for Israel is a unique time lapse that has a specific beginning, a breach, and a finishing

The full length of the period is for 70 heptads [490 360 day prophetic years] of which 483 years transpired at the Lord's cutting off in the first century

The 7 remaining years have never yet come to pass

This present and current period of the Lord's dispensation of grace is still ongoing and will continue until this [Romans 11:25] .... then the Lord will intervene and begin and consummate the events of the 70th week to come

So the beast once "was" ruling, then "was not" ruling .... and he will come out of the abyss to rule again ["yet is] during the the period of the 70 week decreed for the returned remnant part of Israel in the Middle East today

His 5th "head"[kingdom] was wounded, and his 6th will be healed at the beginning of the 70th week decreed .... then he will expand the 6th into the 7th

... and when he has fully possessed the human little horn, he will become the 8th king himself ruling over his 7th and final kingdom

Israel has been returned to the land to experience these things, however, the Lord has not revealed the dating of His intent to bring the beginning of 70th week decreed .... the time of Jacob's trouble [Jeremiah 30]

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 95 by Phat, posted 08-25-2015 10:33 PM Phat has acknowledged this reply

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 12:51 PM Straightshot has responded
 Message 98 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 1:40 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 97 of 274 (767150)
08-26-2015 12:51 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Straightshot
08-26-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Hello Straightshot, nice to have a prophecy teacher here.

I don't follow prophecy too closely because it always confuses me. Somebody pushes a particular view that has parts to it I can't justify by scripture for instance. So I just hold all the prophetic teachings I'm aware of rather lightly, figuring they'll sort themselves out when the time comes.

But one thing I've been MOSTLY convinced of is that the Beast of Revelation 13 [Oops, I think I mean Revelation 17] is the Roman Empire part of Nebuchadnezzar's vision of the statue in Daniel. I've been most convinced of the Reformers' interpretation of it as the Roman Catholic Church, which is what became of the Roman Empire after it fell, led by the papacy, the Pope being the "little horn." Since the Vatican is also a nation state this is a political entity.

However, the Reformers also took account of the two legs of the statue, one leg being the western Roman Empire under the Pope and the other leg being Islam, since Islam replaced the eastern Roman Empire of Byzantium.

Details are beyond me at this point so I'll just ask what you think of this general interpretation.

ABE: I should probably stay out of this discussion since I confused Rev 13 with 17 already. But here's a reference on Rev 17:

http://biblehub.com/revelation/17-11.htm
And a page of commentaries: http://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/17-11.htm

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Straightshot, posted 08-26-2015 11:50 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 99 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 8:57 AM Faith has responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 98 of 274 (767156)
08-26-2015 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 96 by Straightshot
08-26-2015 11:50 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
I reread your post and now find it rather odd. Although I've read prophecy interpretations of the end times that focus on the Middle East, yours is different. Is this just your own personal way of interpreting these things or is there a general school of thought you are reflecting? By the way, what denomination do you belong to?

Here is the human little horn, a king of the northern Middle East who will arise as an Islamic Caliph in the region of Syria/Iraq today [same as the ancient Seleucid Empire north of Israel]

This king will arise during the 70th week decreed for Israel still pending [same as the coming tribulation] .... in the same region that was the core of the earlier ancient Assyrian Empire [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 11:36-45; 12;7; Micah 5:5-6]

This much I've seen elsewhere, the antichrist being a political leader of the Middle East. It's one possibility.

The first beast of Revelation is not human, but a fallen angel who does Satan's bidding in the Middle East and rules over 7 human Middle Eastern kingdoms and related king positions there [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

Where do you get the idea the first beast isn't human? "Beasts" in scripture refer to nations. Human nations. Satan is certainly behind it all but he can't be a beast as I understand that term.

5 of these kingdoms are now historical with the 5th ending just before the first century, this kingdom [head of the beast] fell and Abaddon/Appolyon was sent to the abyss .... still there as we speak

I suppose it's possible to sort the nations of the Middle East according to the numbers in Revelation, but the Roman Empire's various caesars can also be sorted according to the same numbers. I never find such reckonings to be completely convincing, but the Roman Empire HAS to be the meaning of the legs of Nebuchadnezzar's statue, and I can see how they represent both east and west of the former Roman Empire. Certainly the Roman Empire currently lives on in the Vatican with its trappings of the old regime still in place, the robes, the pagan headgear etc etc etc.

He will soon be released to rule over the Middle East again for a short time during the coming tribulation period .... a smaller kingdom at first [the 6th], and then the next [7th] divided/expanded kingdom with 10 other human kings, the divided kingdom of iron and clay [Daniel 2:33; 2:40-43]

Abaddon/Appolyon once "was" ruling over Middle Eastern kingdoms ..... and then was "not".... but he is coming to rule there again .... and yet "is

He, i.e. Satan, also rules over the western Roman Empire though. Why do you focus so exclusively on the Middle East?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 96 by Straightshot, posted 08-26-2015 11:50 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 99 of 274 (767234)
08-27-2015 8:57 AM
Reply to: Message 97 by Faith
08-26-2015 12:51 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Faith

Briefly ....

I will give you a general overall answer in this reply .... I see that you have another posting and questions which I will address shortly, and at the same time give more details

The prophets are all focused primarily upon Israel and the Middle East, past and future .... important to know this when rendering their visions .... same goes for Revelation's unfolding .... this view given by the Lord Himself is the capstone of His Bible prophets .... all are totally congruent

I do know and understand the reformers approach to the interpretation of Bible prophecy and also the later re-constructionist views of the 1800s

I believe that both gave it their best shot, but simply did not understand the prophecies very well, did not have the hindsight of world events that we have today, and were biased toward placing the ancient Roman Empire and related Pope/RCC connection .... I understand why this was done, but I believe their interpretations were well off course

All of the identifiers contained in the prophetic visions reveal a very different picture

For example, the era of the ancient Roman rule and going forward up to this very day is not recorded anywhere in the scope of the visions

At the same time there is a definite exegetical framework that does not include the past 2000 years still ongoing

The visions are all divided into two parts .... past fulfilled, and future still pending

This divide has to do with Israel and a time lapsing for the nation that can be exactly calculated from a known beginning point up to the Lord's first advent, rejection by Israel, and His cutting off

Then there is a breach in the lapsing still ongoing as we speak which will begin with the balance of the unfulfilled portion beginning with His next intervention .... The Day of the Lord

He has not revealed this beginning dating which is not known by humans

The 70 weeks of years decreed for His nation of Israel gives this exegetical picture [Daniel 9:24-27]

It is during the breach that Israel has been out of the land of Israel and scattered all over the earth, until 1948 just after WWII

All of the prophets see Israel in the land again for the balance of the scope of their views to be fulfilled .... however, we are not there yet and all is still pending at this time

The Lord has a purpose for bring this setting into focus for His coming day .... Israel must be in the land and surrounded by the nation's enemies who are the post flood and mixed populations of the Middle East .... these are all predominantly the adherents of Islam today

His purpose with Israel will be to pressure them in the land for turning to Him as their Messiah and King .... they are still in blindness to this very day

At the same time He is going to settle the controversy between Israel [Issac, Jacob] and Ishmael [Mohammed's concoction of the religion of Islam] .... this standoff was set long long ago by the Lord and is still ongoing today

I will address your next posting with additional understanding shortly .... hold on

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 97 by Faith, posted 08-26-2015 12:51 PM Faith has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 100 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 9:59 AM Straightshot has responded
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 4:05 PM Straightshot has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 100 of 274 (767236)
08-27-2015 9:59 AM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straightshot
08-27-2015 8:57 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Faith

There are a few today who do understand the Middle East focus rather than a Euro-centered setting related to the Pope and the RCC .... some have part of the picture rendered correctly, However, most of the professing church today is very apostate in many different ways and in the case of the subject of Bible prophecy this is rarely a part of teaching of the various dogmas and if done an be abused by false teachers who have proprietary ambitions .... this is not uncommon and has been a common practice for years

I myself have no organized religious affiliation and never have

It is the Lord's prophetic scriptures that drew me to the Bible and convinced me that the Bible is what it claims to be .... the very Word of the Lord of creation

I am a skeptic and a realist and need proof for understanding and acceptance for most anything .... I have it .... no doubt .... the Bible is His Word

You have some very good questions which I will address going forward on this forum which will take some time so bear with me

I teach only on the Internet today because of the reaching potential thousands every day which I could never do in a limited community setting

Hang on if you want and I will continue to post on this forum with a focus upon the prophetic scriptures ..... this is all that I do .... my witness to the authenticity of the Lord's incredible and totally believable more sure word of prophecy [2 Peter 1:16-21]

I do see that this forum seems to reflect a scant and somewhat dated interest in the field that I teach .... looks like the interest in Bible may be tailing off here, and this is a trend today across the Internet social media

I will stay as long as there is an interest, but may not be able to spend any length of time

Having said this, I will now address your questions as I get an idea where you ae coming from and to convey my views as best as I can

There is much to digest from the Bible prophets and it seems at fires to be an overwhelming task, but once one spends the time it is really not that complex, bu one has to start the process in the correct direction and then build on the rest

Actually anyone can eventually get it .... the Lord is not a God of confusion and His prophetic scriptures are in the Bible for a reason

They give one reassurance of their faith and are an uncompromising and powerful witness

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 8:57 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 101 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 10:24 AM Straightshot has not yet responded
 Message 102 by PaulK, posted 08-27-2015 1:14 PM Straightshot has not yet responded
 Message 107 by Faith, posted 08-28-2015 4:42 AM Straightshot has responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 101 of 274 (767238)
08-27-2015 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 100 by Straightshot
08-27-2015 9:59 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Continuing ................

"Where do you get the idea the first beast isn't human? "Beasts" in scripture refer to nations. Human nations. Satan is certainly behind it all but he can't be a beast as I understand that term."

The term beast is used describing a human kingdom as an "animal" [Daniel 2, 7, Revelation 13]

The same term is used to describe the Lord's loyal angelic realm [Daniel 12:1; Revelation 5:6; 12:7]

.... and also satanic principalities

Satan himself is an angel .... the leading defector who has set out to usurp the Lord and rule over the Lord's creation [Genesis 3; Isaiah 14; Ezekiel 28; Revelation 12:3-4; 12:7-9; 12:12]

Abaddon/Apollyon is not a kingdom, but a fallen angelic prince who is the king of the abyss angels

This may be redundant to you and I really do not know how much study you have had, so you need to tell me .... I just need to know where to start on any subjects that you are inquiring about

I generally teach from the top down and then cover the supporting details

First the overview [big picture] .... and then substantiating details

Let me know what works best for you .... I can start with the deatils

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 9:59 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
PaulK
Member
Posts: 14562
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.1


Message 102 of 274 (767268)
08-27-2015 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 100 by Straightshot
08-27-2015 9:59 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
You are making some strong claims here. To avoid dragging this thread too far off both the topic and your discussion with Faith are you prepared to start a new thread.

I'll note in particular:

quote:

It is the Lord's prophetic scriptures that drew me to the Bible and convinced me that the Bible is what it claims to be .... the very Word of the Lord of creation

I am a skeptic and a realist and need proof for understanding and acceptance for most anything .... I have it .... no doubt .... the Bible is His Word


I'll just note that the Bible doesn't actually claim that. There are sections of many books which claim to be relaying God's words but that very distinction tends to suggest that the surrounding text is not, nor is there any good reason for supposing that it is. Even if you could show that the prophecies came from God it would not establish that all the other parts of the Bible did. A skeptic and a realist ought to be aware of that.

quote:

Hang on if you want and I will continue to post on this forum with a focus upon the prophetic scriptures ..... this is all that I do .... my witness to the authenticity of the Lord's incredible and totally believable more sure word of prophecy [2 Peter 1:16-21]

I believe that is untrue. But if you can make the case - another thread is the place to do it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 100 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 9:59 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Faith
Member
Posts: 30202
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001
Member Rating: 1.3


Message 103 of 274 (767282)
08-27-2015 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 99 by Straightshot
08-27-2015 8:57 AM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Thank you for your lengthy answer.

The prophets are all focused primarily upon Israel and the Middle East, past and future .... important to know this when rendering their visions .... same goes for Revelation's unfolding .... this view given by the Lord Himself is the capstone of His Bible prophets .... all are totally congruent

Some prophecies concern Israel in the last days, but you'd have to specific which ones because there is some ambiguity between "Israel" and "Church" that has to be sorted out. Also most of the prophecies in Daniel concern world empires, Nebuchadnezzar's statue for instance, and Daniel's own vision of the beasts that represent successive empires. You'd have to say why you ignore those prophecies to focus on Israel.

I do know and understand the reformers approach to the interpretation of Bible prophecy and also the later re-constructionist views of the 1800s

I believe that both gave it their best shot, but simply did not understand the prophecies very well, did not have the hindsight of world events that we have today, and were biased toward placing the ancient Roman Empire and related Pope/RCC connection .... I understand why this was done, but I believe their interpretations were well off course

You are entitled to your opinion, but I strongly disagree. I believe the Reformers made the connection between the Roman Empire and the papacy very well. And it all fits the prophecy of the revival of the Roman Empire.

All of the identifiers contained in the prophetic visions reveal a very different picture

No, "all" do not, though some do refer to other scenarios, this is why you need to be specific about which prophecies you have in mind. There's still plenty that refers to the Roman Empire and to the papacy.

For example, the era of the ancient Roman rule and going forward up to this very day is not recorded anywhere in the scope of the visions

Which visions are you talking about? There's plenty in Revelation and in Daniel that refers to a revived Roman Empire and to the papacy as the woman riding the beast which is the Roman Empire. It has gone through various forms since it fell to the vandals, one of its forms being the RCC that became heir to it. It was and is not in that sense, but is if you see how the RCC continued it.

At the same time there is a definite exegetical framework that does not include the past 2000 years still ongoing

No idea what this means.

I am going to have to come back to this later. But I'll say at this point that I do expect that Israel will play a big part in the unfolding of the last days, a very fitting location for the finale of Planet Earth where God oversaw so much history in His redemptive plan. I also think the seventieth week of Daniel probably is pivotal to the final events, as the first sixty-nine of the seventy weeks did lead up right to the announcement of the true Messiah, and there is still another week to be fulfilled. I don't have a problem with any of that. The drama of good and evil on Planet Earth must be concluded in the Middle East.

But you can't just ignore the prophecies that refer to the Roman Empire and the papacy as representative of the world powers that oppose God's redemptive plan. I think the Reformers got all that right and now we're being asked to bury the truth again, right when all that is about to come to fruition in the One World Order with its world religion.

As I said, I'll have to come back to this later.

Edited by Faith, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 99 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 8:57 AM Straightshot has responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 104 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 10:14 PM Faith has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 104 of 274 (767295)
08-27-2015 10:14 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by Faith
08-27-2015 4:05 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
"I believe that is untrue. But if you can make the case - another thread is the place to do it."

Hi there Paulk

Believe what you want ..... that is what I do

.... and I think this thread is an ideal place to do it

So I will continue, and you should check in here and there

For some reason this forum seems to be diminishing, so I may not be here for the long term .... there are many other places to teach the Lord's more sure word of prophecy on the Internet and I currently have an extensive reach

In any event, make certain that you are ready .... the days are numbered [Matthew 25:1-13]


This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by Faith, posted 08-27-2015 4:05 PM Faith has not yet responded

Replies to this message:
 Message 105 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 11:19 PM Straightshot has not yet responded
 Message 106 by PaulK, posted 08-28-2015 1:15 AM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
Straightshot
Member (Idle past 788 days)
Posts: 89
From: Mitchell SD USA
Joined: 08-25-2015


Message 105 of 274 (767298)
08-27-2015 11:19 PM
Reply to: Message 104 by Straightshot
08-27-2015 10:14 PM


Re: Beasties and Bibles
Faith

You are far to presumptuous and making early assumptions

Bible prophecy is a subject that requires much discussion about many things which I intend to do

In your post above you seem to be questioning the relationship between Israel and the "church", and about whether the ancient Roman Empire and related is described in the visions of the prophets

These are both subjects of great controversy and require much discussion

Briefly .....

Israel and the "church" are related only in matters of the Lord's salvation in
which there is no regard for national identity .... the same for both "Jew" and Gentile

However, there is a vast difference between the Lord's nation of Israel and the nations of the Gentiles

The Lord makes this quite clear .... here are a few verses [Isaiah 11; Jeremiah 30; 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; Micah 5:7-8; Zechariah 12; 14; Romans 11]

And the ancient Roman Empire is not specifically identified in any of the visions of the Bile prophets .... some have speculated Rome into the visions and the NT does record Rome as a matter of documented history, but not one prophet has Ancient Rome in view in their visions

.... and 70 AD was not the time of the end still pending as most of the professing "church" today .... the Roman incursions at the time are not seen in any prophets record and the event falls into the breach of the last 2000 years unrecorded by the prophets

Only Israel and the surrounding populations of the Middle East are recorded

For example, here are the 7 specific middle Eastern Gentile kingdoms of Satan's beast of Revelation recorded in the prophets

The early land of Magog and his brothers Meshek and Tubal

The Assyrian Empire

The neo-Babylonian Empire

The Medo-Persian Empire

The major divide of the Empire of the Seleucid kings north of Israel [the larger part of Alexander's Asian holdings] [Syria/Iraq today]

The above are of the 5 fallen Middle Eastern kingdoms and related human king "positions"[Revelation 17:8-11]

.....then, after a very long time lapse will come the kingdom of the little horn [Daniel 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 11:36-45; 12:7]

The unnamed outgrowth of the 5th will be the smaller kingdom of the little human little horn of Daniel's visions in the same region at the time of the end which he will expand into the divided kingdom of iron and clay and rule with 10 other kings [Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7-25; Revelation 13:1-4; 17:12-18]

The last king of the north was Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35]

The next will be the little horn at the end of this present age [Daniel 11:36-45; 12:7]

Rome is not recorded as one of the 7 kingdom's of Abaddon's rule

The kingdoms of the north and south recorded in Daniel 11:1-35 were the Seleucid kingdom of the north of Israel, and the Ptolemaic kingdom of the south of Israel [Egypt]

Both remained divided rivals before the first century .... neither conquering the other

Note that at the time of the end still pending these will again be rivals and the king of the north [the little horn ruling Syria/Iraq] will conquer the king of the south and add add to his kingdom [Daniel 11:40; 11:42]

The ancient Roman Empire was not and will not a part of this rivalry between the north and the south

Rome did not begin as two rival kingdoms, one north and south of Israel and is not represented by the two legs of Iron in the image of Daniel 2 .... the northern leg and southern leg represent the two rivals above of the past, and will be the same at the time of the end still pending

This same relationship is setting up as we speak, the little horn will rule the north [the coming Muslim Caliph], and the king of the south will be the ruler of Egypt

The Ancient Roman Empire and subsequent Empires [there have been several different ones over the last 2000 years] up until the present factional dividing of the Muslim Middle East are all in the breach between the ending of the 69th week decreed for Israel ...... and the beginning of the 70th till pending

Anything between is simply not found in the visions of the prophets

Here is what has happened:

People over the past 2000 years jumped the gun by inserting their ideas into the breach, and then forming the proprietary dogmas of their organizational "church" movements .... all replacement theologies refusing to recognize the Lord's future intent regarding His national people of Israel

In other words, a hijacking of Israel's position and appropriating the same for themselves

More things to come .... hold on

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.

Edited by Straightshot, : No reason given.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 104 by Straightshot, posted 08-27-2015 10:14 PM Straightshot has not yet responded

    
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