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Author Topic:   Calvinism and Arminianism remix
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 283 (744547)
12-11-2014 5:44 PM


In this topic, I want to wipe the slate clean and more fully discuss various doctrines of Christian Faith and how the arguments basically break down.
Conditional Election
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world was based upon His foreseeing that they would respond to His call. He selected only those whom He knew would of themselves freely believe the gospel. Election therefore was determined by or conditioned upon what man would do. The faith which God foresaw and upon which He based His choice was not given to the sinner by God (it was not created by the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit) but resulted solely from man’s will. It was left entirely up to man as to who would believe and therefore as to who would be elected unto salvation. God chose those whom He knew would, of their own free will, choose Christ. Thus the sinner’s choice of Christ, not God’s choice of the sinner, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Unconditional Election
God’s choice of certain individuals unto salvation before the foundation of the world rested solely in His own sovereign will. His choice of particular sinners was not based on any foreseen response or obedience on their part, such as faith, repentance, etc. On the contrary, God gives faith and repentance to each individual whom He selected. These acts are the result, not the cause God’s choice. Election therefore was not determined by or conditioned upon any virtuous quality or act foreseen in man. Those whom God sovereignly elected He brings through the power of the Spirit to a willing acceptance of Christ. Thus God’s choice of the sinner, not the sinner’s choice of Christ, is the ultimate cause of salvation.
Universal Redemption or General Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work made it possible for everyone to be saved but did not actually secure the salvation of anyone. Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved. His death enabled God to pardon sinners on the condition that they believe, but it did not actually put away anyone’s sins. Christ’s redemption becomes effective only if man chooses to accept it.
Particular Redemption or Limited Atonement
Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save the elect only and actually secured salvation for them. His death was a substitutionary endurance of the penalty of sin in the place of certain specified sinners. In addition to putting away the sins of His people, Christ’s redemption secured everything necessary for their salvation, including faith which unites them to Him. The gift of faith is infallibly applied by the Spirit to all for whom Christ died, therefore guaranteeing their salvation
According to Arminianism:
Salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man(who must respond)man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REJECTED by the Synod of Dort. This was the system of thought contained in the Remonstrance (though the five points were not originally arranged in this order). It was submitted by the Arminians to the Church of Holland in 1610 for adoption but was rejected by the Synod of Dort in 1619 on the ground that it was unscriptural.
According to Calvinism:
Salvation is accomplished by the almighty power of the Triune God. The Father chose a people, the Son died for them, the Holy Spirit makes Christ’s death effective by bringing the elect to faith and repentance, thereby causing them to willingly obey the gospel. The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration) is the work of God and is by grace alone. Thus God, not man, determines who will be the recipients of the gift of salvation.REAFFIRMED by the Synod of DortThis system of theology was reaffirmed by the Synod of Dort in 1619 as the doctrine of salvation contained in the Holy Scriptures. The system was at that time formulated into five points (in answer to the five points submitted by the Arminians) and has ever since been known as the five points of Calvinism.
The above was taken from Calvinism-vs-Arminianism comparison chart
quote:
Calvinism and Arminianism are two systems of theology that attempt to explain the relationship between God's sovereignty and man's responsibility in the matter of salvation. Calvinism is named for John Calvin, a French theologian who lived from 1509-1564. Arminianism is named for Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch theologian who lived from 1560-1609.
The author at Got Questions points out that
quote:
It is interesting to note that in the diversity of the body of Christ, there are all sorts of mixtures of Calvinism and Arminianism. There are five-point Calvinists and five-point Arminians, and at the same time three-point Calvinists and two-point Arminians. Many believers arrive at some sort of mixture of the two views.
Lets open this up for discussion, with the only presupposition being that GOD exists and that Jesus and the Bible are generally assumed presuppositional to our philosophy.
Also allowed in this topic are other conclusions and how they are logically arrived at, given of course that GOD exists.
Faith & Belief, please
Edited by Phat, : added
Edited by Phat, : spallin

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
One of the major purposes of debate is to help you hone your arguments. Yours are pretty bad. They can use all the honing they can get.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 12 of 283 (744619)
12-13-2014 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by herebedragons
12-13-2014 12:14 PM


The Governor and The Warlord
HBD writes:
There are 1,000 prisoners on death row awaiting execution. The governor declares that he is going to issue pardons to all prisoners on death row and set them free. However, the governor knows that many of the prisoners hate him, and in fact they actually like being in prison. Many others just would not do very well in the outside world since prison is all they have known for many years. So he fills out the pardon papers only for those who he knows will accept it, which is only about 100 individuals. He then goes around to the cells of the prisoners whom he has pardoned, opens the cell door, places the pardon in their hand and escorts them out of the prison. After releasing all 100 pardoned prisoners, he then orders that all remaining be executed immediately.
Now, imagine the same scenario, but in this case, the governor writes a pardon for every oneof the 1,000 prisoners. He then takes them around to each prisoner one by one and personally offers it to them. But many of the prisoners hated him and they refused to take the pardon, some even spit on him and cursed him. The governor was saddened by this, but what could he do? He can't force anyone to take the pardon. A few did take the pardon, and they were released from the prison. The governor then allowed the executions to continue as scheduled.
Excellent analogy!
faith writes:
The point is that you give the individual the power to accept it out of his own free will then he has contributed to his own salvation apart from God, as I've said more than once...
jar used to have an analogy known as The Warlord:
quote:
There once was a missionary in China. The village he was in was very poor, the crops had failed and people were near starving. One of the warlords showed up and told the people, if they would abandon their current master and join him he would see they got food. Just believe in him and all will be okay. Any that did not believe in him would be left to starve to death.
The warlord could have saved everyone, he had wealth and more than enough food, but instead he wanted to save only those who would follow him.
The analogy goes on to teach that the warlord had enough food for everyone and thus should have fed everyone...including those who did not like him nor wish to follow him.
jars analogy would have the governor not only offering a pardon to every prisoner but releasing every prisoner whether they accepted the pardon or not..whereas HBD analogy says that all are offered the pardon yet only those who accept the pardon will have an opportunity to benefit from it.
I would only say that you can lead a horse to water but you cant make him drink.
Edited by Phat, : added Faith
Edited by Phat, : clarified jars analogy

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

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 Message 7 by herebedragons, posted 12-13-2014 12:14 PM herebedragons has replied

Replies to this message:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 13 of 283 (744620)
12-13-2014 2:54 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Faith
12-13-2014 2:43 PM


I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
Faith writes:
The difference is whether you explain that as done by their own free independent will, which you may think your analogy illustrates but in fact it doesn't since that's the expect-able action no matter what your theology --those who do are the Elect --, or that their ability to receive it is ultimately to be attributed to God's grace rather than to themselves. Something we can't ever know in the act itself but know by inference after the fact. if they leave simply grateful to the governor then they are giving him the credit, not themselves but since he has no power to affect their action it really doesn't work as the analogy you want it to be.
The critics maintain that the very idea of an elect on one hand and those who are perishing on the other(Taken from a John MacArthur sermon, by the way) is itself wrong.
Of course we could argue that the potter has every right to make some pots foreknowing their eventual value and sale at market whereas making other pots that he knows will never make it. Critics maintain that picking and choosing(ultimate foreknowledge) is evil. Personally, at the end of the day, I believe that God is God and that I am alive through His Grace alone and that if I die I am in His hands. Critics would argue that my idea of God needs work, however.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 17 of 283 (744626)
12-13-2014 3:13 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by Faith
12-13-2014 3:00 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
Faith writes:
If this is meant to characterize Calvinism it is completely wrong. God saves people according to His own sovereign will, not according to some notion of who likes and will follow him, because as scripture makes clear, and as Calvinism expresses in the concept of Total Depravity, there is nobody who likes God or wants to follow him == we're all born in sin and are all "at enmity" with God until we're saved. It's the act of saving us that changes us, we're born again and are new creatures with new hearts who are able to love God though before we were just sinners as every member of the human race is. God often chooses the worst sinners too, those who hate Him the most. So that analogy is just plain wrong.
Keep in mind Faith that we are all discussing these ideas in a Faith/Belief context. For the sake of this discussion, there is no absolute right nor wrong---all ideas are welcome. Keep in mind, also, that as individuals our beliefs are never absolute in regards to one source. Some of us may adapt some ideas from Calvinism, others from Arminianism, and still others from something or someone else that we read. Of course as a believer I believe that God is behind my quest fro wisdom and truth---in a strict sense I believe that Jesus Christ is Himself truth...thus were I lazy I would need no further study---but I also love discussion of ideas and concepts and so we continue.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 283 (744636)
12-13-2014 4:43 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by herebedragons
12-13-2014 4:19 PM


Re: The Governor and The Warlord
HBD writes:
Pardoning everyone whether they want it or not seems to violate free will as well, just at the other extreme.
This gets back to the analogy of hell, as I understand it and believe it. Some say that God created evil. Others say that God only created the possibility of evil and that humans through free will either actualize it or deny it.
Still others maintain that hell is an illusion...thus why the need for salvation.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 22 of 283 (744637)
12-13-2014 4:48 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by jar
12-13-2014 3:03 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
jar writes:
There is no need to make shit up (although Biblical Christians do seem hell bent on making shit up); just select the pieces parts out of context to support your position.
Context allows us to more accurately determine the meaning in which the writer intended to convey. "Making stuff up" is in my mind nothing more than random thoughts not yet written down. I would agree that if a book is to be written it should have an outline and a purpose and motive for its publication and distribution. Ideally, all of our ideas are verbal expressions of books not yet written.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 3:03 PM jar has replied

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 Message 23 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 4:49 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 24 of 283 (744640)
12-13-2014 4:59 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by jar
12-13-2014 4:49 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
jar writes:
I have no idea what all that even means
Books are compilations of ideas, beliefs, facts, and fiction. John Calvin essentially read the same Bible that you or I or Faith have read. Calvin arrived at his own conclusions, as did Faith, as do I and as do you. My question, I suppose...is what is the difference between "making stuff up" in a book and in a forum? Answer: Nothing.
Next question:
If we take fifty authors with different interpretations as to what the compiled Bible means, what is our tentative conclusion on the matter?
Are we any wiser today than John Calvin was?
Should we ourselves rewrite the Bible based on better information?
I said in the OP that
quote:
Lets open this up for discussion, with the only presupposition being that GOD exists and that Jesus and the Bible are generally assumed presuppositional to our philosophy.
Perhaps I should not have said
quote:
Also allowed in this topic are other conclusions and how they are logically arrived at, given of course that GOD exists.
After all, the discussion is essentially on the philosophy and writings of early church fathers and reformers. I DO want us to freely add to the conclusions, seeing as how we are allegedly wiser than they were.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 4:49 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 5:28 PM Phat has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 26 of 283 (744644)
12-13-2014 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by jar
12-13-2014 5:28 PM


Re: I Beg Your Pardon,Maam
what is the difference between making stuff up and supporting your position? One could argue that everything is essentially made up when it comes to Faith & Belief.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 5:28 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 29 of 283 (744683)
12-14-2014 3:28 PM
Reply to: Message 28 by jar
12-13-2014 7:02 PM


Re: on being wiser
jar writes:
Calvin simply had to work within the then available data and evidence.
I would argue that data and evidence in and of themselves do not increase theological wisdom. (except in the examples that you mentioned) I would agree that human concepts of religion and belief and even of GOD change over time, but the evidence won't change who GOD actually is nor what HE does.
Edited by Phat, : No reason given.

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden. (Leo Tolstoy)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 28 by jar, posted 12-13-2014 7:02 PM jar has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 32 of 283 (755484)
04-08-2015 6:25 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by jar
12-13-2014 6:34 PM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
Phat writes:
what is the difference between making stuff up and supporting your position? One could argue that everything is essentially made up when it comes to Faith & Belief.
jar writes:
Nonsense. It is not made up to say "This is what Calvin wrote" or "Here is what is written in Genesis 2&3". Those are not made up but rather statements that can be supported by actually looking at the texts.
I essentially made up the idea of potentialized evil versus actualized evil. I would argue that it makes more sense for God to create potential evil which still needs to be chosen rather than to simply condemn everyone by making actualized evil at the get go.
Why should we look only to texts for support for arguments? Does not what we think and say itself have as much scholarly thought as anything written down?

Saying, "I don't know," is the same as saying, "Maybe."~ZombieRingo
It's easy to see the speck in somebody else's ideas - unless it's blocked by the beam in your own.~Ringo
If a savage stops believing in his wooden god, it does not mean that there is no God only that God is not wooden.(Leo Tolstoy)

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 36 of 283 (760062)
06-17-2015 9:17 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by PaulK
04-09-2015 1:11 AM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
When it comes to religion, however...one could argue that it has all been "made up" anyway---by humans....thus anything I bring to the table should carry as much weight as any other belief.
Perhaps our debates settle around our interpretations of what has been written down (and/or said) by others.
It has been my observation that religious scholars---those who are educated and have a grasp of the history of religion---are often dull and uninspiring. Rarely do I hear anything inspiring. My critics would argue that I seek inspiration as if for want of a better term it is magical and having power to transform my life. I will in this instance agree with my critics, but I do not consider GOD to be magic. In my belief, Gods magic is in fact reality writ large.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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 Message 35 by PaulK, posted 04-09-2015 1:11 AM PaulK has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 38 of 283 (760085)
06-17-2015 2:37 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by PaulK
06-17-2015 9:39 AM


Re: the difference betwee making shit up and supporting a position
I would argue that there is an open discussion regarding intellectual honesty also. Granted there are many tried and true arguments regarding belief versus reality. The fact is, however, that the summatiion of the "facts" in all of reality---as understood by humanity currently---originate on this dust speck of a planet 9 light minutes from the nearest star in the middle of an ordinary galaxy of roughly one hundred billion stars in a known universe of roughly one hundred billion galaxies.
Our belief is that our own scientific method, observation and evidence are our most reliable approach to understanding this vast space. (Im speaking, of course of inner space within known social intellect as well as outer space that we can see and measure.)
Religion as a barometer of reality is quite rightly judged and found lacking for many of us. Some, however have concluded that a Creator with a higher intelligence than our own has answers for both our inner space and our outer space. Intelligence is a given in regards to life---both here on earth and elsewhere (as yet largely undiscovered)
Reality suggests that encounters with such intelligence may not always be peaceful nor will go our way.
Perhaps this is also why the idea of a God is repugnant to many people---they simply will not accept the idea of a higher intelligence than their own being directive or authoritative over anything in they or their kids futures.
Calvinism and Arminianism are simply paradigms of philosophical thought regarding relationship with a Deity. If we humans were to encounter a higher intelligence "out there" (or even "in here") It may not even be God.
What we would do then is attempt to define our reactions, beliefs, and strategies for dealing with it (them).
Current fantasies may well become future truths one way or another.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 41 of 283 (760136)
06-18-2015 2:10 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by ringo
06-17-2015 3:37 PM


Re: on being wiser
Phat writes:
I would argue that data and evidence in and of themselves do not increase theological wisdom.
ringo writes:
That sounds like the ultimate cop-out: You don't have to study or even think to receive "theological wisdom". All you have to do is sit in your ivory tower and wait for it to come to you.
I emphasized "in and of themselves." We always need to think and we do need to study...but if that is all we did, our own efforts...arguably won't get us any closer to GOD. Granted I cant measure the distance between the known and the unknown. Perhaps I need to use my Apple and uncover my awareness of my nakedness and my Original Synapse.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by ringo, posted 06-17-2015 3:37 PM ringo has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 43 of 283 (760333)
06-20-2015 11:33 AM
Reply to: Message 42 by ringo
06-18-2015 11:55 AM


Re: on being wiser
ringo writes:
It wouldn't get us any closer to unicorns either. In fact, the more we study and think, the more it seems that unicorns don't exist - which is why I suggested that you're making an effort not to study or think because you might learn something you don't want to know.
And what possibly could that be?
To many it seems that GOD doesn't exist but I'm never afraid that it is true.
Granted GOD Himself may not be what I really want to know...but I pray that He is as I believe that He is and not some mystery prize on Lets Make A Deal that I pick by mistake.
Besides...I would argue that He chose me long before I was capable of choosing Him.
But alas...we are drifting off topic.

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by ringo, posted 06-18-2015 11:55 AM ringo has replied

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Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 45 of 283 (760599)
06-23-2015 5:04 PM
Reply to: Message 44 by ringo
06-20-2015 12:00 PM


Lost In Space
ringo writes:
Well, you "seem" to be lost without the idea of a Sky Daddy.
I'll go a step further than that. Without the idea, nothing would exist.
Through Him all things were created. This means every material. every animal, vegetable or mineral, and every idea within our minds.
In fact, even your next post will be inspired by Him and through Him even if you don't believe in Him.
Wiki writes:
Calvinism also maintains that because of our fallen nature we are born again not by our own will but God’s will (John 1:12-13); God grants that we believe (Phil. 1:29); faith is the work of God (John 6:28-29); God appoints people to believe (Acts 13:48); and God predestines (Eph. 1:1-11; Rom. 8:29; 9:9-23).
Were this true, you may in fact be predestined not to believe!

God created war so that Americans would learn geography. —Mark Twain
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by ringo, posted 06-20-2015 12:00 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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